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 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't claim to speak for Marmatag, but I assume the idea was that the Nids lists Drukhari struggle against run horde units that don't die efficiently to poison. I... don't know enough about Tyranids to dispute that but my impression is that is an inaccurate representation of the faction since some of the big bugs are quite viable (hive tyrants if nothing else) and those naturally hate poison.

Dark eldars had no trouble whatsoever blowing up index orks. Will be interesting to see how they deal with orks now that orks can actually shoot back and deep strike+assault has got more reliable. In index 360 model ork army? Easy peasy with dark lance heavy dark eldars.

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't claim to speak for Marmatag, but I assume the idea was that the Nids lists Drukhari struggle against run horde units that don't die efficiently to poison. I... don't know enough about Tyranids to dispute that but my impression is that is an inaccurate representation of the faction since some of the big bugs are quite viable (hive tyrants if nothing else) and those naturally hate poison.

Dark eldars had no trouble whatsoever blowing up index orks. Will be interesting to see how they deal with orks now that orks can actually shoot back and deep strike+assault has got more reliable. In index 360 model ork army? Easy peasy with dark lance heavy dark eldars.

"Splinter doesn't work versus hordes" meets Tneva82's "a weak breeze kills 60 Orks a turn".

If the DE is running heavy lances they will be in trouble - but they have not done that since the codex (where DE became progressively crap despite being leagues ahead of 7th edition).
Killing 360 models might be a challenge, but splinter and dissies did fine versus 6 point orks. They start to get rubbish against 4 point guardsmen & gaunts - but these are not typically spammed in massive numbers (re: hundreds) and this is equally true for just about every faction in the game.

Against 7 point orks venoms are netting a 30% or so return before buffs, which is fine. Kabalites net a 64% return pre buffs in rapid fire range. This idea that DE have trouble with hordes really doesn't stack up.

Going back to the OT....

I think my issue with Soup is that it's very, very Imperial. They get the best of everything when it comes to soup. Cheap and cheerful infantry? There's Guard for that. And they come with lots of CPs. Face Smasher units? Smash Captain, or Jetbike Custard Captains. Need some artillery? There's Guard for that. And it's not unreasonably priced.

For everyone else, their Soup Menu is much more limited. They're either variations on the same theme (Chaos, Eldar), or just can't soup it at all (Orks, Necrons, Nids). Only Imperium has the choice to properly exploit things, and mash together the cream of each crop.

Simple answer is 'no sharing formation CPs'. That cuts down a lot of shenanigans (like Smash Captains).

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't claim to speak for Marmatag, but I assume the idea was that the Nids lists Drukhari struggle against run horde units that don't die efficiently to poison. I... don't know enough about Tyranids to dispute that but my impression is that is an inaccurate representation of the faction since some of the big bugs are quite viable (hive tyrants if nothing else) and those naturally hate poison.

Dark eldars had no trouble whatsoever blowing up index orks. Will be interesting to see how they deal with orks now that orks can actually shoot back and deep strike+assault has got more reliable. In index 360 model ork army? Easy peasy with dark lance heavy dark eldars.

"Splinter doesn't work versus hordes" meets Tneva82's "a weak breeze kills 60 Orks a turn".

If the DE is running heavy lances they will be in trouble - but they have not done that since the codex (where DE became progressively crap despite being leagues ahead of 7th edition).
Killing 360 models might be a challenge, but splinter and dissies did fine versus 6 point orks. They start to get rubbish against 4 point guardsmen & gaunts - but these are not typically spammed in massive numbers (re: hundreds) and this is equally true for just about every faction in the game.

Against 7 point orks venoms are netting a 30% or so return before buffs, which is fine. Kabalites net a 64% return pre buffs in rapid fire range. This idea that DE have trouble with hordes really doesn't stack up.

DE have this weapon called a shredder. It's maybe the best anti infantry weapon in the game for it's points. I include a lot of them in my lists.

d6 shots reroll wounds agianst infantry - str 6 ap-1 and ignore cover if you are in flayed skull.

Your strategies sound great in theory. But it's difficult to kill blobs of 30 boyz. And then if you don't kill them all, it's Green Tide time. And there's more Boyz on the table, or deep striking at your face.

You think you can just maximize all your shooting, but then you remember that you need area denial or they'll deep strike in a bad spot, and you also need to wall against Stormboyz, Meganobz, etc. The new Ere We Go is really, really good.

And seriously terrain is a thing. Killing the last 5 boyz is not easy if the Ork player has a brain and daisy chains them out of LOS.

Orks are a tough matchup. It's winnable, but tough. The game could go either way depending on dice.

I've actually played against the new Ork Codex and a tuned list. Have you?

 Marmatag wrote:
Your strategies sound great in theory. But it's difficult to kill blobs of 30 boyz. And then if you don't kill them all, it's Green Tide time. And there's more Boyz on the table, or deep striking at your face.

You think you can just maximize all your shooting, but then you remember that you need area denial or they'll deep strike in a bad spot, and you also need to wall against Stormboyz, Meganobz, etc. The new Ere We Go is really, really good.

And seriously terrain is a thing. Killing the last 5 boyz is not easy if the Ork player has a brain and daisy chains them out of LOS.

Orks are a tough matchup. It's winnable, but tough. The game could go either way depending on dice.

I've actually played against the new Ork Codex and a tuned list. Have you?

I find the new Orks to be really brutal in the few games I've had.

With enough shots to clear my weak chaff and then friggin Gorkanauts ramming my front line plus a green tide if I don't finish off a unit...

I predict meltas are about to become really popular. Also, more durable chaff - I think i'm going to start using spawn as deepstrike zone spreaders.

I'm glad to see a Codex that can use vehicles to great effect without those vehicles having invulnerable saves everywhere. I like my meltas to be usefull.

They where relatively usefull vs Leman Russes but wounding on 4+ with a single shot was very unreliable.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Your strategies sound great in theory. But it's difficult to kill blobs of 30 boyz. And then if you don't kill them all, it's Green Tide time. And there's more Boyz on the table, or deep striking at your face.

You think you can just maximize all your shooting, but then you remember that you need area denial or they'll deep strike in a bad spot, and you also need to wall against Stormboyz, Meganobz, etc. The new Ere We Go is really, really good.

And seriously terrain is a thing. Killing the last 5 boyz is not easy if the Ork player has a brain and daisy chains them out of LOS.

Orks are a tough matchup. It's winnable, but tough. The game could go either way depending on dice.

I've actually played against the new Ork Codex and a tuned list. Have you?

I find the new Orks to be really brutal in the few games I've had.

With enough shots to clear my weak chaff and then friggin Gorkanauts ramming my front line plus a green tide if I don't finish off a unit...

I predict meltas are about to become really popular. Also, more durable chaff - I think i'm going to start using spawn as deepstrike zone spreaders.

Agree. They have a lot of tools and there is more than one build. I played against a list that had no vehicles, but was still very devastating. I've also seen lists with T8 vehicles to absord overwatch and help get things stuck in. Meganobz are *nasty*.