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 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you grab almost any set of dice you'll find that they roll 20%+ to a single number. The only good distributions come from casino dice, which are expensive.

I buy my d6s in bulk from chessex, and have no issues with them, I have tested them myself.

If these low quality dice are allowed at tournaments, why is taking a dice intentionally loaded to roll a 5 25% of the time considered cheating? If it becomes a question of "legitimacy" what is to stop me from buying dice in bulk and then testing them and taking only the dice weighted to roll high numbers.

At least to me, that is an issue that seems bigger than intentional cheating.

I have only played in local tournaments, but the store always provided the dice in order to cut down on issues like this.

IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

 helgrenze wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Troy wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thankfully you can test your dice weights/randomness easily with water, kosher salt, and a glass. It also reveals cheaters dice.

How does that work?

I don't think it identifies poorly weighted dice all that well. Just cheater's dice.

Boil the water first. This gets rid of any dissolved air, and also helps with the next step.

Divide the boiled water into two parts. Mix one of the parts with as much salt as it will dissolve. It helps to do this while the water is still hot, since salt dissolves faster and easier in hot water. You'll still have to do quite a bit of stirring to get a really saturated brine.

Let both batches of boiled water cool down. (You can speed this up with a cold water bath.) If the water looks dirty, run it through a coffee filter to get rid of any gunk.

(Come to think of it, if you had a coffee maker, you might be able to do all this just by filling the filter with salt and running a cup or two of water through it. Alas, I don't have one around to test it.)

Put the dice you want to test in a small cup, pour enough of the salty water in so they float nicely, and then gradually add non-salty boiled water until they float just barely.

Check that there are no visible air bubbles stuck on the dice (especially inside the pips / numbers) that could upset the balance. If there are, try to get rid of them. (Dripping single drops of salt water from above on top of the floating dice seems to be a fairly effective way to shake the bubbles off.)

Poke the dice a couple of times, and see if they consistently return to the same orientation. If so, they're unbalanced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rolling all your dice 52 times and recording the numbers should reveal any biases...and it's much easier.

It should be noted that clear dice (of any color) tend to be less biased than solid color dice due to the way they are processed during manufacturing. Most casino dice are of the clear variety for this reason.

Casino dice are also designed to require being turned over multiple times and thrown with some force. If you just let them fall out of your hand you can control the outcome. I strenuously object to my opponents rolling casino dice in games.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

needs to be a suitable number but I'd go for this, something nicely done, clear to read with the event logo or something.

heck while you are at it a small set of acrylic markers etc as well

leopard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

needs to be a suitable number but I'd go for this, something nicely done, clear to read with the event logo or something.

heck while you are at it a small set of acrylic markers etc as well

A brick of 27 dice is more than enough to play with for most armies - plus you could even have additional dice available for purchase. I agree about markers as well. It should all be part of the entry fee. I am willing to spend more to know that everyone is using balanced dice.

So, anyone can toss dice professionally....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMcnDk3SiE

And he's a rookie. That was the first video that popped up searching dice cheating on youtube. Just saying, the weight of the dice isn't the issue, it's the grip.

EDIT:

NExt video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

Like I said, every local tournament I go to this is done, I seriously thought this was done on a national level too.

If it isn't and everyone can bring their own dice...

I like to think of myself as a pretty smart guy, but I can't believe that I am the first person to think of the "buy dice in bulk and only take the best ones" strategy. The "best ones" being dice that roll statistically higher because of small manufacturing or material flaws.

I have to think that there is a high probability that many tournament players do this.

w1zard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

Like I said, every local tournament I go to this is done, I seriously thought this was done on a national level too.

If it isn't and everyone can bring their own dice...

I like to think of myself as a pretty smart guy, but I can't believe that I am the first person to think of the "buy dice in bulk and only take the best ones" strategy. The "best ones" being dice that roll statistically higher because of small manufacturing or material flaws.

I have to think that there is a high probability that many tournament players do this.

Well really - it doesn't even have to be intentionally. We all have a favorite set of dice. It's our favorite for a reason. It probably rolls a little bit better than it should. You aren't actually adding it up through statistics - you just have a strong feeling that they are better. Just remove that from the equation. Give everyone dice from the same source (chessex or something) and they still might not be perfectly balanced dice BUT at least it's actually random at that point.

w1zard wrote:
If it becomes a question of "legitimacy" what is to stop me from buying dice in bulk and then testing them and taking only the dice weighted to roll high numbers.

Nothing, which is why dice apps are a good thing. Or, at absolute minimum, using the event dice as a common pool for both players.

(Interesting note: in X-Wing you have the right to ask that both players use a common set of dice, so if you suspect that your opponent is cheating with dice you can always level the playing field.)

In most editions of warhammer you are meant to share dice; the rules normally say something like pick up all the dice that rolled a wound and use them to attempt armour saves.

People can be very particular with their dice and reluctant to share.

nareik wrote:
In most editions of warhammer you are meant to share dice; the rules normally say something like pick up all the dice that rolled a wound and use them to attempt armour saves.

People can be very particular with their dice and reluctant to share.

Yeah, which fuels suspicion if someone is on a lucky run.
I think two bricks of dice shared is the way to go.

I also suspect its easier to rig the roll/drop a single die than say ten of them, although that doesn't help if someone is using d6 damage weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:
Nothing, which is why dice apps are a good thing. Or, at absolute minimum, using the event dice as a common pool for both players.

I see why you would think that dice apps would level the playing field, but I have already addressed why they really don't. Your second suggestion is closer to the mark, either that or do as Xenomancers says and give all event players a set of dice they use for the entire tournament (from a good manufacturer) and add the cost to the entrance fee.

 Xenomancers wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

needs to be a suitable number but I'd go for this, something nicely done, clear to read with the event logo or something.

heck while you are at it a small set of acrylic markers etc as well

A brick of 27 dice is more than enough to play with for most armies - plus you could even have additional dice available for purchase. I agree about markers as well. It should all be part of the entry fee. I am willing to spend more to know that everyone is using balanced dice.

agree a brick should be plenty, and if its not as long as more are available its fine, key is you get everyone using the same and remove that argument before it happens. in decent quantities shouldn't be too much and its a nice reminder of an event

FYI, the latest Signals from the Front Line addresses tracking penalties during the season. Starts at 57 mins in. They do, what it was for, and who gave it.

leopard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

needs to be a suitable number but I'd go for this, something nicely done, clear to read with the event logo or something.

heck while you are at it a small set of acrylic markers etc as well

A brick of 27 dice is more than enough to play with for most armies - plus you could even have additional dice available for purchase. I agree about markers as well. It should all be part of the entry fee. I am willing to spend more to know that everyone is using balanced dice.

agree a brick should be plenty, and if its not as long as more are available its fine, key is you get everyone using the same and remove that argument before it happens. in decent quantities shouldn't be too much and its a nice reminder of an event

I can't let this pass. A brick of dice is ~$5.00. LVO had 600+ players. In order to provide dice for every player, LVO would have to shell out ~$3,000 on dice alone. If they want fancy dice (logo on the 6 type things), the price goes up. They want all the dice to be from the same company, because otherwise there is no point to this, so they have to coordinate an order of 600 cubes. The company isn't going to have that in casual stock, so they have to start talking to the dice company months before the event. They likely want the dice the same color, which further slows production. Chessex is going to be happy to sm you 600 cubes of green and purple dice with LVO on the six , but if you want them to ship on January 15th you better be kn the phone, money in hand, in October.

Doing event dice isn't impossible, but it is a significant additional burden on the coordinators of the event. The largest events could do it, and often do similar things with custom objective markers and fancy mission packs, but the discussion seems to be treating it like it would be trivial. It would be cool, and I personally would be happy to pay the handful of $ extra for tickets at an event that had dice for everyone, but I dont expect it and I think that expecting events to provide dice as the standard is absurd.

If you know what you're doing, you can manipulate dice as you toss them.

I learned how to do it over 20 years ago, and if I want a single die or a brick of 40 in my hands to roll in my favor, I'll make it happen.

I can do this with any dice, mine, yours, ours, if you roll 10 dice to hit, I can pick up the same dice and roll for armor saves and do it. It doesn't matter.

The only way to stop me from doing so is to force me to toss the dice a certain distance away. I saw someone mention this in a post on this page, and what he says is true.

I only did this against players I knew were cheating me. They never knew I was doing it.

But hey, if you're going to be a scum bag, just be careful you aren't playing against a professional scumbag.

So it doesn't matter if an event forces me to use their dice or not. This doesn't prevent anything meaningful. Only way to stop dice cheating is to force players to toss the dice at least a foot away from their hand. Better if you have to bounce the dice off of a wall, like in a box.

babelfish wrote:
I can't let this pass. A brick of dice is ~$5.00. LVO had 600+ players. In order to provide dice for every player, LVO would have to shell out ~$3,000 on dice alone...

Or, you know they could just tack an extra 5$ on the entrance fee for each player?

Less, because companies usually give bulk discounts, or there can be an advertising opportunity for the dice company in question at the tournament.

Throw in a dice shaker as well then?

w1zard wrote:

babelfish wrote:
I can't let this pass. A brick of dice is ~$5.00. LVO had 600+ players. In order to provide dice for every player, LVO would have to shell out ~$3,000 on dice alone...

Or, you know they could just tack an extra 5$ on the entrance fee for each player?

Less, because companies usually give bulk discounts, or there can be an advertising opportunity for the dice company in question at the tournament.

The point is less the cost, as I addressed in my post, and more the need to order in bulk, requiring that they have funds available well in advance and that the unpaid volunteers running the event take on additional responsibilities. In order to get the dice in time for the event they have to order well in advance of the event deadline. They do not know how many people will attend, they have not got monies from tickets, and they are not paid for their time. If you disagree, you can try to order 600 sets of custom dice by next Friday, see how well that works for you.

babelfish wrote:

w1zard wrote:

babelfish wrote:
I can't let this pass. A brick of dice is ~$5.00. LVO had 600+ players. In order to provide dice for every player, LVO would have to shell out ~$3,000 on dice alone...

Or, you know they could just tack an extra 5$ on the entrance fee for each player?

Less, because companies usually give bulk discounts, or there can be an advertising opportunity for the dice company in question at the tournament.

The point is less the cost, as I addressed in my post, and more the need to order in bulk, requiring that they have funds available well in advance and that the unpaid volunteers running the event take on additional responsibilities. In order to get the dice in time for the event they have to order well in advance of the event deadline. They do not know how many people will attend, they have not got monies from tickets, and they are not paid for their time. If you disagree, you can try to order 600 sets of custom dice by next Friday, see how well that works for you.

Open registration 6 months earlier. It is not uncommon for other events to do this, challenge/obstacle runs open a certain amount of early bird tickets for what I assume is this exact reason... To order in advance the trophies or tee's you get for completing.

Money is covered with more than enough time to get the dice ordered and shipped.

One thing I find interesting is that I followed the Warmahordes tournament stuff for a couple of years, and there was very, very rarely any accusations or drama around cheating. I can only remember one time (the "Finger of God") where it came up. Yet virtually every major GW tournament since 8th edition came out has had something (on that note does anyone remember the event wheres one guy conceded the game without even playing in the final round because he lost initiative? I've been trying to find the event but it seems to have been scrubbed from the net) that is gross cheating to negligence to slow play.

Why don't you see this in other games?

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I find interesting is that I followed the Warmahordes tournament stuff for a couple of years, and there was very, very rarely any accusations or drama around cheating. I can only remember one time (the "Finger of God") where it came up. Yet virtually every major GW tournament since 8th edition came out has had something (on that note does anyone remember the event wheres one guy conceded the game without even playing in the final round because he lost initiative? I've been trying to find the event but it seems to have been scrubbed from the net) that is gross cheating to negligence to slow play.

Why don't you see this in other games?

The more popular something becomes, the more likely it is to attract a down and out loser who feels inept in life, hates their inadequacies and so will try anything and everything to make sure they are dominant in at least one area of their life.

It's an unfortunate side effect of a growing product, and it will be that way till the little stupid boys masquerading as men grow up.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see Tos make participants use units that are clearly marked differently than other units of the same type. I see more of the 2nd and 3rd things mentioned and a lot of the time it is an honest mistake. But there have been times when I've played (not just 40K) that somehow that unit on the right became what I was sure had special rules that only applied to the unit on the left. The other problem comes from when those 2 units intermix. Somehow, somebody ends up closer/farther from where the unit was supposed to be all to the controlling players favor.

I'm not saying use different paint jobs but maybe different colors on the base or maybe even different scenic stuff on the bases (one has red bushes the other blue).

my 2 cents.

This is the problem with tournaments allowing each detachment to have a different chapter/craftworld/faction/ect.

Danny slag wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see Tos make participants use units that are clearly marked differently than other units of the same type. I see more of the 2nd and 3rd things mentioned and a lot of the time it is an honest mistake. But there have been times when I've played (not just 40K) that somehow that unit on the right became what I was sure had special rules that only applied to the unit on the left. The other problem comes from when those 2 units intermix. Somehow, somebody ends up closer/farther from where the unit was supposed to be all to the controlling players favor.

I'm not saying use different paint jobs but maybe different colors on the base or maybe even different scenic stuff on the bases (one has red bushes the other blue).

my 2 cents.

This is the problem with tournaments allowing each detachment to have a different chapter/craftworld/faction/ect.

Personally if going to an actual event where this could even slightly be a problem a bit of custom paint is added, last time was Tyranids with two hive fleets, only one unit was common to both, so one lot got red stripes on the carapace, because Kraken goes faster.. Genestealers have yet to gain it as the 1st edition models don't suit it much.

for marines etc coloured dots on the bases, say every 90 or 120 degrees should be plenty to remove any issues, and is easy to do pre-event and paint over again post if needed. Ditto something to distinguish different units

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I find interesting is that I followed the Warmahordes tournament stuff for a couple of years, and there was very, very rarely any accusations or drama around cheating. I can only remember one time (the "Finger of God") where it came up. Yet virtually every major GW tournament since 8th edition came out has had something (on that note does anyone remember the event wheres one guy conceded the game without even playing in the final round because he lost initiative? I've been trying to find the event but it seems to have been scrubbed from the net) that is gross cheating to negligence to slow play.

Why don't you see this in other games?

I saw roughly the same amount of cheating in both game systems, just in different locations. I saw people try to cheat dice and movement in 40k while people used the mass amount of unit rules to confuse their opponents during casual warmahordes play.

Also, in agreeing with you a bit here, warmahordes was made with tight rules in mind for tourney play. 40k is a beers and chips game of model collecting some people FORCE into a tourney environment. So, from what I saw, a room filled with warmahordes players all knew the same rules, while 40k players had their own context for the loose rules that often contradicted each other.

Obviously I've not done any scientific research on this. So who knows.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I find interesting is that I followed the Warmahordes tournament stuff for a couple of years, and there was very, very rarely any accusations or drama around cheating. I can only remember one time (the "Finger of God") where it came up. Yet virtually every major GW tournament since 8th edition came out has had something (on that note does anyone remember the event wheres one guy conceded the game without even playing in the final round because he lost initiative? I've been trying to find the event but it seems to have been scrubbed from the net) that is gross cheating to negligence to slow play.

Why don't you see this in other games?

The more popular something becomes, the more likely it is to attract a down and out loser who feels inept in life, hates their inadequacies and so will try anything and everything to make sure they are dominant in at least one area of their life.

It's an unfortunate side effect of a growing product, and it will be that way till the little stupid boys masquerading as men grow up.

I don't think that's the explanation at all. X-Wing has a World Championships of around 500 players, for example, and just as with the WM/H comment from Wayniac, the amount of cheating and drama is pretty much zero. Euros was even bigger at 700+ and again there was no controversy over cheating. In addition, it's very rare to see or hear about cheating at any of the various other big events that take place throughout the year. We're talking about Regionals and System Opens with 100-300 players taking place regularly throughout the year. I pointed it out previously in this thread but I think the biggest difference is rules. 40k's rules are a mess, which allows unscrupulous players more opportunities to cheat or otherwise manipulate the results of the games. I think there's a community element too, where the 40k community has failed to police itself properly. Part of that comes down to how controversies are handled during and after the event. My impression from the outside (or semi-outside as I play 40k but don't go to tournaments) looking in is that infractions and outright cheating simply aren't dealt with appropriately. It's a shame, because I have no doubt the vast, vast majority of players are great people to play against and it's more than likely I could attend any number of tournaments and not encounter anyone who cheats. Then again...

I listen to a bunch of 40k podcasts, mainly while painting, and thinking back on it I can see a pattern developing, even at the top level of tournaments, or perhaps more worryingly I could say particularly at the higher level of play. We've had the LVO incident from last year and the LGT cheating issues from a player who this year was also brought up in relation to being a bad opponent by another player whose reputation is pretty much above reproach. I was listening to the Tabletop Tactics podcast about the event and Lawrence mentioned in his last game his Necron opponent was rolling too many attacks for his Lord. The Vanguard Tactics report from the last GW GT includes a summary of a game that was slow-played and thoroughly unenjoyable. Perhaps none of these last three incidents are 100% incidents of cheating (I'd argue the Necron Lord one is pretty dodgy for someone with a winning record at the last game of the LVO) but they are all examples of incidents I just can't think of an analogue for in X-Wing tournaments and I wouldn't say I've gone out specifically looking for examples of cheating and poor play at tournaments. Theses are all incidents that have happened in two of the biggest tournaments since December.

Interestingly, I remember one (and only one) incident of cheating in X-Wing at the early stages of a Regional in, I think, Germany a few years ago. It was caught on camera, pointed out on a couple of forums and the TO dealt with it very efficiently and quickly. Compared to the response in 40k it's night and day. Frankly, for all the talk about how big 40k is and the race to host the biggest, most impressive tournaments and conventions, the approach to dealing with cheating and general poor play experience is amateurish at best.

You don't need one brick of dice per player, you need one per table. So 300 bricks, brings the cost down to 1500. Brick is on the table along with the terrain, only this brick can be used on this table, players share the brick. If you need to battle hand techniques, make your players bring a dice cup as well.

But honestly I don't think you can go to a 600 man tournament and expect to find more than 2-3 cheaters in there. It really is not that widespread.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO - tournaments should be giving you a block of dice to use from a single source as part of your buy in. Using your own dice should NOT be an option.

Groovy. Going to be expensive for tournament to provide at least 60 dices to each player.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
You don't need one brick of dice per player, you need one per table. So 300 bricks, brings the cost down to 1500. Brick is on the table along with the terrain, only this brick can be used on this table, players share the brick. If you need to battle hand techniques, make your players bring a dice cup as well.

But honestly I don't think you can go to a 600 man tournament and expect to find more than 2-3 cheaters in there. It really is not that widespread.

It's not about how prevalent the issue is, it's about the results. If the top 10 include 2+ cheaters, the top 6 includes 2+, and the top 3 included 1, it's fair to say that cheating affected the tournament.

Not saying that is what happened, but a hypothetical. In the most recent LVO we already had reports of shady-ness from the top 10. It's prevalent enough that GW/ITC banned discussions of the games in question, and banned people posting about it on their forums.

ITC wants to avoid the potential look of being soft on cheaters, while simultaneously being softer on cheaters than the NFL.

I am not a tournament goer, but what worries me is that if there were 2+ incidents in the top 10. And lets face it, at least in theory those top 10 shouldbe watched by other people the most, how many "incidents" happen on the lower tables or in games 1-2, where someone who is off to be top 20 plays someone who ends up bottom 20.

while simultaneously being softer on cheaters than the NFL.

hey man, not all cheaters. Just the ones they like or which bring in the big add money. The rest gets punished with the hammer of god.