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HQ

Pedro Kantor 175pts

Librarian- Nullzone, Avenger 100pts

Honour Guard (5) -Relic blade on champion, 2x Relic blades 230pts

Troops

Tactical Squad- Combi Plasma, Plasma gun, Multimelta 190pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Tactical Squad- combi melta, Meltagun, Missile launcher 185 pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Elites

Sternguard Squad (8)- Power fist, Heavy Flamer, 2x Combi-melta, 2x Combi plasma 255pts
-Rhino- 35pts

Fast Attack

Attack Bike Squad (2) Multimeltas 100pts

Heavy Support

Landraider- Multimelta, Extra Armour 265pts

Predator Autocannon, Lascannon sponsons 120pts

Predator Autocannon, Lascannon sponsons 120pts

I am wondering whether to switch the landraider and predators out for a sternguard squad, rhino for the honourguard, and some typhoons ,or the same as what I just stated, but 2 riflemen/ or autocannon, plasma cannon dreadnaughts. Both of these options would increase the amount of kill points I have in the list.

What are your thoughts?

Wait....I thought the point of taking Pedro Kantor was so you could field 18 scoring units!

I think those honor guard are pricy, honestly.

I know someone who favors Crimson Fists. He once said: "Land Raiders? I don't use them. To me, that's another tactical squad."

I'm not always the most competitive player, because I'm out for fun, but I always think of the Old Rogue Trader book when I originally started with 40k a LOOOOONNNNGGG time ago. I like the concept of massed Crimson Fist tacticals shooting at hordes of orks.

On a side note. Crimson Fists are my first thought for SM, not ultrasmurfs. I started when combat accessories(bayonets and saw blades) were mounted on bolters, Corvus Armor was the standard, and space marines wrote things like "Kil kil kil" and "Lust for blud" on their wargear.

Yeah I am a bit uncertain about the landraider, I feel the sternguard on dreadnaughts could put out more damage, and rhinos allow me to hide one behind the other, and fire an orbital bombardment out the top hatch. On the other hand the Landraider can block line of siight to the rhinos behind, with minor risk to itself in the process. The honour guard are rather a lot of points, but they single handedly took mephiston out in one round of combat, so they are not too shabby, and the relic blades really come into their own when taking marines out. (I only charged due to the fact mephiston was locked in combat with my tacticals so I couldn't shoot at him)

I'd drop the Honour Guard for a 2nd Squad of Sternguard personally since that could give you 2 more scoring units if you took 10 Marines, plus a lot more possible damage done.

Even at the cost of losing a counter assault unit?

If you nwat a counter assault unit, consider Assault Terminators. better Weapons, better armour, cheaper, and both of your squads would run on foot, where the Termies also outshine the Guard because they can DS (no rhino for the Honour Guard, as far as I can tell, do they ride in the LR ?)

The bottom line is this: will you trade a 5 man squad with STR 8, Ini 1 Save 2+/3++ for a squad of 5 guys 3 of whom have STR 6, Ini 4, Save 3+ ?

I'd take the termies every time, but YMMV.

As is usually the case, alkasyn is right. As is Taurinus. Lose that honor guard. Seriously, they're cool, but sternguard or termies will serve you better.

Really I see losing the command squad as a must. If you do you'd have 5 tac termies w/AC (230 pts.), or an assault termie squad to toss in the LR if you want (200 pts).
I don't like the Attack bikes, personally. I'd rather see those points go to something else.

Most importantly to me, I think you need more sternguard. I'd say lose the bikes command squad, and sternguard squad you currently have (that's 620 points).
I'd take a squad of assault termies TH/SS (200)
I'd take 2 squads of 6 sternguard w/4 combi meltas/flamers. I'd give each squad a drop pod if possible (else I'd say give them rhinos). If pods, get a locator beacon on one.) Pods = 420 [rhinos 450].

If you really want, you could also throw out the termies for more sternguard. I guess my problem is that one unit of sternguard does not justify Kantor, imo. Rather take advantage of the sternguard. They're potent infantry, and very powerful scoring units. Get lots of them and use them to your advantage.

I really do not want to go down the track of an alpha strike list, it can be negated in too many ways. Smaller squads I find also are a disadvantage, as they end up not being able to deal with larger units by themselves.
At this point, honour guard are in the landraider, although a rhino is looking more appealing, along with another sternguard squad or 2 riflemen dreadnaughts. One of the reasons I am taking kantor is also the +1 attack buff, and access to the honour guard.

The bottom line is this: will you trade a 5 man squad with STR 8, Ini 1 Save 2+/3++ for a squad of 5 guys 3 of whom have STR 6, Ini 4, Save 3+ ?

They have a 2+, so it is not as bad as it seems, and striking before the enemy can lead to less casualties. I have serriously been considering squeezing in khan for furious charge and hit and run too, although that leads me towards a generic chapter master rather than pedro.

What is it that you don't like the attack bikes?

I find a single predator with TLLC (105 points) will do more damage to tanks, overall, than those two bikes. Those bikes aren't too hard to kill off, anyway. For this list, I think support in the rear is a better bet than the bikes. In my exp, attack bikes, on their lonesome, have not done well.
As for the Honor guard:
No matter how you look at them, they're too expensive for what they do. Get sternguards instead, if you want to go that route. I, personally, find that the assault termies will work better for you, and I think that the math will back me up.

If you're taking Kantor, don't do it for the honor guard. That +1 attack comes from a standard bearer (purchasable by the honor guard for 25 pts.) Then you could just take a normal chapter master. Still though, that's at least a 250 point sink for an extra attack on the master and those units, and ONLY those units. The banner works well for a lot of cc, but you have one unit. It's not worth it. And I guarantee you assault termies will end up beating that guard (whether TH/SS or LC).

I'm sorry to say it, but the honor guard isn't worth it. You bring Kantor to take advantage of sternguard. If you don't want to do that, don't bring Kantor.

The banner works well for a lot of cc, but you have one unit. It's not worth it. And I guarantee you assault termies will end up beating that guard (whether TH/SS or LC).

I have had experience with them against the terminators+ sicarius + cassius combo, with most of the unit being demolished thanks to null zone, although the honour guard lost the combat, and fell back, the combine charge of another sternguard squad was able to tip the balance, with the champion taking out cassius personally. They have also killed mephistion in 1 round of combat with only 2 losses.

I feel khan, along with a chapter master, may in the long run do better than pedro, but that leaves me with 2 scoring units.

The terminators I have been mulling over for a long time, and I am rather indecisive about their inclusion, as I can see many bonuses and draw backs to their inclusion.

Really here's the issue. The honor guard aren't spectacular enough to be as fragile as they are. Yes, they have Artificer armor, but with no invuln saves, combat vs. any unit with power weapons will eat you alive. For example:

5 LC termies vs. Honor guard. So you have the relic blades offering you 10 hits (assuming you get charge (or 1 extra attack)) and then 6 other str. 4 power weapons. So you hit on 4+. So 8 make it through, 5 str. 6, 3 strength 4. Of these, 4.16 relics wound, and 1.5 power swords wound. So you have 5.56 wounds. Of these 1.8 are saved. So 3.76 wounds.
The termies do 15 attacks. they hit on 4+ and reroll fails. that's 11.25 hits. They wound on 4+ so you take 5.625 wounds. You lose combat and your honor guard, which costs 30 points more than the termies. There may only be 1.24 left at the end of combat, but the termies are the winner in that combat. And they win by roughly 2 wounds.

At TH/SS it is also interesting. so they take 5.56 wounds. 1.8 are successful (the rest saved). They retaliate with 6 attacks, which is 3 hits. of which 2.5 wound. You have no saves, you lose combat, and until your next turn the HG are I1 units.

You can say you'll put a libby with them, but as the most prominent SM HQ, they very well might have one to psychic hood your null zone.

You can talk about all the nice gear you'd throw at them, but the sad truth is that they are statistically worse than terminators (and I gave your men an extra attack BONUS). Without that extra attack the termies gain roughly 25 or so % more effectiveness.

If your fluff calls for them, then use them for fluff. However, there is no reason to use a an Honor guard squad.
As such I'd say keep the libby. I'd lose pedro, grab another tactical squad, lose the Honor guard, grab some assault termies (TH/SS are more useful, but do what you wish).

To reiterate: if you love the honor guard and their fluff, keep them. But know that they are outgunned by assault termies in either role. Not to count the weakness the honor guard has to plasma weaponry, lascannons, Vindicator blasts, leman russes, rending, power weapons, etc. Which will crush them without an invuln save

The key thing I was planning was to weaken all other assault units first, and use the honour guard for primarily troop killing.
What would your thoughts be on adding khan?
If I only had the librarian as the primary HQ, would the best bet be giving him terminator armour and rolling with the terminators, or saying in power armour and joining the sternguard?

If you bring Khan, bring bikes. Pedro is sternguard. Vulcan is MM/HF/TH.

If you want khan, that list is going to majorly change. You'll want more bikers, and go for bike troops.

Yeah I really don't want to change into biker list due money constrainst, although his furious charge buff would be rather nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah I really don't want to change into biker list due money constrainst, although his furious charge buff would be rather nice.

Again, I'd say lose the honorguard, the sternguard, and the bikes, lose the combis with the Tac squads, and make them flamer/ML.
You'd have 655 points from that.

Sternguard w/ 4 combi-meltas and 1 TLAC razor: 220
Sternguard w/ 4 combi-meltas and 1 TLAC razor: 220
Assault termies w/ TH/SS (or LC if you really want):200
Which would leave you with 15 more points (if you clean up those tac squads to flamer/ML). 10 of which are used to clean up the LRC (which is actually 275).
This then leaves you with 5 points remaining.

So the list would be:

HQ: 275
Pedro Kantor
Libby

Elites: 925
5TH/SS termies w/LRC (ea/MM): 475
2x 5sternguard (5 combi-meltas), razors w/TLAC: 450 points

Troops:
2x10Tac squad, flamer/ML, w/rhino: 410

HS:
2x1Pred w/AC/LC sponsoons: 240

TotalL 1850 points on the nose.

Hashbeth wrote:As is usually the case, alkasyn is right. As is Taurinus. Lose that honor guard. Seriously, they're cool, but sternguard or termies will serve you better.

Really I see losing the command squad as a must. If you do you'd have 5 tac termies w/AC (230 pts.), or an assault termie squad to toss in the LR if you want (200 pts).
I don't like the Attack bikes, personally. I'd rather see those points go to something else.

Most importantly to me, I think you need more sternguard. I'd say lose the bikes command squad, and sternguard squad you currently have (that's 620 points).
I'd take a squad of assault termies TH/SS (200)
I'd take 2 squads of 6 sternguard w/4 combi meltas/flamers. I'd give each squad a drop pod if possible (else I'd say give them rhinos). If pods, get a locator beacon on one.) Pods = 420 [rhinos 450].

If you really want, you could also throw out the termies for more sternguard. I guess my problem is that one unit of sternguard does not justify Kantor, imo. Rather take advantage of the sternguard. They're potent infantry, and very powerful scoring units. Get lots of them and use them to your advantage.

I'd invite you over for a beer for all the niceties we say to each other, but I guess you're too far away for the trip to be viable

Also, the last reiteration of the list looks pretty decent.