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i was at an ard boyz tourny and the host told me when firing out of the chimera that line of sight starts from the top door entrance that is behind the turret and not the hatch that is placed on the top of the turret. so which is it? ive come arcross this question before and it was stated that a hatch is what so happens to be what is on top of the turret. google "tank hatch".

DakkaDakka wrote:

gaining that 2d6 on meltas can be a big diff if its 1 inch out of 6'. i dont think it can be argued IF you know what a tank hatch is.

Also, it makes a difference because the turret can block LOS from the back hatch but not from the one on top of the turret.
I have always though of it as being from the back hatch behind the turret.

DakkaDakka wrote:

The rules are vague, they just say top hatch. The Chimera has two top hatches.

fluff wise its the big hatch by the lasguns in the back.

Vincent305 wrote:gaining that 2d6 on meltas can be a big diff if its 1 inch out of 6'. i dont think it can be argued IF you know what a tank hatch is.

No it cant be argued if you know what a Crew compartment hatch is.

The hatch at the front is for the chimera crew, not the passengers

DeathReaper wrote:The rules are vague, they just say top hatch. The Chimera has two top hatches..

One of which is over the passenger compartment and large enough for 5 guys to poke their heads out, and the other which is over the crew compartment and not accessible to the passengers.

So yes, the rules are vague, but it's not really difficult to figure it out.

I totally agree with you Insaniak, but the rule just says top hatch.

The one over the crew compartment and not accessible to the passengers is still a top hatch.

Though i do not know anyone that uses the crew compartment to shoot out of, RAW has a case for it being either because of the way the rule is written.

I'm not arguing the RAW. Just pointing out that this is one of those situations where the RAW being vague doesn't mean that the 'correct' way to play it is equally vague.

Be equally vague, cut out the door in the seperating wall =)

This is yet another unfortunate situation where you need either an old-timer like myself or a Copy of IA 1 or 2.

The IA books show/tell you exactly where the "top hatch" for firing out is, and the Old Codices do as well.

If you read between the lines in the descriptive portion of the text on the Chimera's fire points it becomes extremely clear which top-hatch they are talking about, as there are no lasgun emplacements flanking the turret hatch.

Looking to RAI, and Rules as modeled; the turret hatch(or in the case of Rhinos, the Crew hatches), are the placements for Pintle mounted weapons; therefore the Large Crew Hatches are clearly the intended fire-points.

The Turret does not block LOS. The tank it's self can not block LOS for troops fireing out of it.

Larotonda1984 wrote:The Turret does not block LOS. The tank it's self can not block LOS for troops fireing out of it.

Entirely incorret. From memory even covered in the FAQ. You only ignore models within your unit when working out LOS.

And no, the tank is not the same unit as the squad.

The one over the crew compartment and not accessible to the passengers is still a top hatch...

By using this logic then a Land Raider should have a firing point as well, yet it does not. Seems consistent to me that only the big square hatches on the Chimera and Rhino are the fire points.

Ghaz wrote:

The one over the crew compartment and not accessible to the passengers is still a top hatch...

By using this logic then a Land Raider should have a firing point as well, yet it does not. Seems consistent to me that only the big square hatches on the Chimera and Rhino are the fire points.

2, in fact!

Kommissar Kel wrote:This is yet another unfortunate situation where you need either an old-timer like myself or a Copy of IA 1 or 2.

The IA books show/tell you exactly where the "top hatch" for firing out is, and the Old Codices do as well.

If you read between the lines in the descriptive portion of the text on the Chimera's fire points it becomes extremely clear which top-hatch they are talking about, as there are no lasgun emplacements flanking the turret hatch.

Looking to RAI, and Rules as modeled; the turret hatch(or in the case of Rhinos, the Crew hatches), are the placements for Pintle mounted weapons; therefore the Large Crew Hatches are clearly the intended fire-points.

Hey old timer!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/paintedpotato/Random%20modles/IMG_1291.jpg

Thanks I had no scans of the old CA!, nor of the old IAs

After reading this thread, I have realized that many of my Tau could have survived one game where I played against Mech IG. I could have claimed that the Chimera turrets were blocking LOS for all those dang Plasmagun vets.

It's pretty douchy to claim cover in that manner, does anyone actually do that?

Fearspect wrote:It's pretty douchy to claim cover in that manner, does anyone actually do that?

Most people actually do that, since it's how the rules work.

Models block LOS from other units. The FAQ clarifies that vehicles also block their own LOS if turrets or the like are in the way. So why wouldn't the squad's LOS be blocked by the Chimera's turret?

Isn't the shooting represented by the lasguns sticking out the sides, and only range is measured from the hatch?

The lasguns these days are only fluff. The firepoint is the hatch.

I mean, following that rule, couldn't you never fire from the hatch at all anyway? The hatch is in the middle of the top of a vehicle that is the exact same height, and by TLOS, you could never fire at any model on the table that is less than 2.5" tall, regardless of distance.

A hypothetical guardsman-firing-out-from-the-hatch is going to have a viewpoint somewhere above the hatch (you could imagine it being, say, 0.5"-1"), not at hatch level. Thus, I don't think that argument would fly unless there's someone standing right next to the Chimera.

Fearspect wrote:I mean, following that rule, couldn't you never fire from the hatch at all anyway? The hatch is in the middle of the top of a vehicle that is the exact same height, and by TLOS, you could never fire at any model on the table that is less than 2.5" tall, regardless of distance.

General practice is to take LOS from just a fraction above the hatch. Yes, it's not RAW, but as you point out, strict RAW makes the hatch pretty useless as a firepoint.

Time to throw out my Chimeras I guess, RAW says I have lost one of its most important abilities. At least its still amphibious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Fearspect wrote:I mean, following that rule, couldn't you never fire from the hatch at all anyway? The hatch is in the middle of the top of a vehicle that is the exact same height, and by TLOS, you could never fire at any model on the table that is less than 2.5" tall, regardless of distance.

General practice is to take LOS from just a fraction above the hatch. Yes, it's not RAW, but as you point out, strict RAW makes the hatch pretty useless as a firepoint.

So you are saying just a fraction above the hatch, giving nearly every model in the game a cover save regardless of angle? Why not two inches then, such that it ignores the turret?

Fearspect wrote:So you are saying just a fraction above the hatch, giving nearly every model in the game a cover save regardless of angle?

No, I'm not saying any such thing. The turret obscures LOS in a very small arc directly to the vehicle's front. If your embarked unit is firing in any other direction, they're gravy.

Why not two inches then, such that it ignores the turret?

Because the aim is to alter the rules as little as necessary in order to make them function. It's safe to assume that the models are supposed to be able to fire from the hatch (because the rules say they can), so we elevate the LOS by the bare minimum necessary to make that possible.

insaniak wrote:

Fearspect wrote:So you are saying just a fraction above the hatch, giving nearly every model in the game a cover save regardless of angle?

No, I'm not saying any such thing. The turret obscures LOS in a very small arc directly to the vehicle's front. If your embarked unit is firing in any other direction, they're gravy.

Why not two inches then, such that it ignores the turret?

Because the aim is to alter the rules as little as necessary in order to make them function. It's safe to assume that the models are supposed to be able to fire from the hatch (because the rules say they can), so we elevate the LOS by the bare minimum necessary to make that possible.

You're unnecessarily altering the rules, then. Because the guardsmen can totally shoot out at anything taller than a chimera without any rules altering at all.

It does function without any modification. That said, it is silly. But we're all arguing RAW here.

BTW: What fraction of an inch? Any more than, say, 33% of an inch clears the turret anyway. (Perhaps 50%)

For casual play I wouldn't mind if the other player didn't take the turret into account when figuring line of site...but its definitely something I'll keep in mind for tournaments. haha.