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Any Ideas for a big punching wave serpent for a low points cost?

I currently use twin linked Bright Lances but people keep telling me they aren't worth the points (but 4 destroyed Ork Battlewagons say differently).

Any constructive ideas?

Imo generally Scatter Lasers should be your default loadout, they are relatively cheap and importantly are very flexible. They are one of your best anti infantry options (outclassed by the EML firing blast if they are bunched up and thats about it) and the best option against light armour (i.e Rhinos and Razorbacks which show up everywhere). The only option cheaper are the Shuriken Cannons, but they are let down by their 24" range.

That said it doesn't mean you have to take Scatters everywhere, Serpents are one of the few places Eldar can easily swap weapons around to cover weaknesses of your list. The only weapon option I would never take are the Starcannons, because the Scatter Laser is just as good against MEQ 99% of the time and better against vehicles for cheaper. A big chunk of people will say the same for Bright Lances, because they are massively overpriced and aren't reliable anti tank weapons. In general I agree with this, but they offer you a way of stopping heavy armour without using Dragons so having 1-2 of them in your list is fine.

Otherwise EML is certainly a solid TAC option for only slightly more than the Scatter Laser, particularly helpful with the number of AV12 vehicles (notably Dreads) which show up now. Shuriken Cannons are still viable options as well, on Serpent carrying Fire Dragons etc there isn't much point investing too many points into them because they are much more likely to die, so its an obvious place to cut points.

While I've not played with it, Shuriken Cannon + Eldar Missile Launcher is what I plan to use. It has the flexibility to take on any target while still moving at full speed. Against medium vehicles fire the Krak Missile equivalent, against light vehicles or infantry the Plasma Missile (defensive weapon) and Shuriken Cannon.

How does the EML fare against land raiders and blood angels?

Personally I'm not a fan of any single-shot weapon on any Eldar tank. With BS3, you just can't get enough hits to make any such gun worthwhile.

Blood angels will be getting their armor saves against plasma missiles, and possibly also FNP. A krak missile will kill a Blood Angel, if he fails his cover save, but only one per shot.

EMLs are especially poor against land raiders. First you need a hit, then you need a 6 to do anything (glancing only) then you gotta get past the LR's cover save. The only feasible ways for Eldar to kill land raiders is with short-range fusion guns or wraithcannons.

I like to put EMLs on Falcons, where they combine with the 2 str8 shots from the pulse laser to create something that can kill dreadnoughts and other AR12 vehicles at range. Three shots nearly always gets a hit, and sometimes a second one.

For wave serpents I personally like the scatterlaser turret and shuriken cannon on the chin. That gives you seven shots, four of them twin-linked, that can wreck light transports or overwhelm the armor saves of heavy infantry when used in large numbers.

Badly. The EML can only glance a Land Raider so that's not worth the effort.

Ultimately, I'd say any Waveserpent Load-out works, except for Starcannons.

If your list lacks anti-tank or long ranged anti-tank, then Bright Lances are a good choice; some may criticise their points cost, but I - amongst others - feel they're well worth it.
EML's are great for all-round flexibility; able to damage tanks and hordes. If your list is already well-rounded then this is a solid choice and can pack some anti-tank firepower, but admittedly less than the BL.
Scatter Lasers are like EML's in that they're versatile. Four TL Str6 shots can damage most targets and are rated one of the best weapons in the Eldar Codex. Typically, I'd recommend this as your go-to option.
Shuriken Cannons however are only marginally worse than Scatter Lasers, but cost less. If you're tight on points or your Wave Serpent isn't likely to last long, I'd use these. I'd definitely recommend these on a Fire Dragon Serpent, as such as unit is a high-priority target so you don't want to draw more attention to it, or spend too many points on it.

If you're finding BL's are working well for you, then I'd recommend you stick with them, but ultimately I'd argue any - bar Starcannon - weapon loadout to be viable on a Waveserpent, however I would recommend Shuriken Cannons on a Fire Dragon Serpent.

Also, the underslung Shuriken Cannon is almost always well worth it.

I commonly run 5-6 Wave Serpents. You will want 1 EML at a minimum to give you long range anti-AV12 and the rest Scatter lasers. Scatters are murders of AV 10-11 which will be the majority you see, glance an AV 12 to deaht if you REALLY need something dead, and is great for anti-infantry. I take 1 bright lance in 2k+ because sometimes you just need a long range anti AV13+ or ID on a 2+ armor T4 marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I would fully disagree on the underslug Cannons being worth it. It is based on your playstyle, but a serpent has no business moving at 6" speed within 24" range.

With EML maybe it's viable to do the S4 blast, but there is plenty of less risky ranged options.

Anytime you have something valuable in a wave serpent. Dragons, Seer Council, etc. Shuriken Cannons up top, and Vectored Engines. That's it. nice and cheap.

Now if you are transporting Dire Avengers around, might as well put Scatter Lasers, or EML up top, and take some Stones.

But yes, it really depends on what your army needs more of, and what works for you. I used to run Brightlances on everything all the time, but have not taken one at all in months. Things change.

BlueDagger wrote:Also I would fully disagree on the underslug Cannons being worth it. It is based on your playstyle, but a serpent has no business moving at 6" speed within 24" range.

With EML maybe it's viable to do the S4 blast, but there is plenty of less risky ranged options.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there! I think the extra Str6 shots are well worth it for 10pts. Whilst at first you'll be unlikely to use it due to moving fast, in later turns & once the contents have disembarked, I like Shuriken Cannons for their extra firepower to really turn the WS into a gunboat. 7 Str 6 shots for example is very nasty IMHO.

take my comment with a grain of salt as i have only a small amount of experiance with eldar but whats your list load out if you have fire prisms and plan to get into your enemys face and drop troops with fire prism back up you dont need a bunch of bright lances, it just depends on where your tank busting is and at wich point lvl your typicly playing at.

around here its 2k points so i usually have fire prism and the farseer DA combo serpent with the lance for some guide action (Tau is my main army and i HATE missing in turn 1)

Just Dave wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Also I would fully disagree on the underslug Cannons being worth it. It is based on your playstyle, but a serpent has no business moving at 6" speed within 24" range.

With EML maybe it's viable to do the S4 blast, but there is plenty of less risky ranged options.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there! I think the extra Str6 shots are well worth it for 10pts. Whilst at first you'll be unlikely to use it due to moving fast, in later turns & once the contents have disembarked, I like Shuriken Cannons for their extra firepower to really turn the WS into a gunboat. 7 Str 6 shots for example is very nasty IMHO.

I agree with Dave here. Most things in the game only have assault or melta range of 18". So there's a sweet spot between 19" and 24" where you can sit and shoot all day (at least until you run out of table), and nothing can reach you.

Also I usually run my grav tanks in more than one rank, so the ones closer to the enemy move fast and fire less, so that the ones further back (and blocked from being assaulted) can go slower and shoot more.

For Wave Serpents, I suggest loading the with a weapon to target the opposite of the unit they're transporting.

If you've got Fire Dragons inside, the WS should have an anti-horde weapon. Scatter Laser is ideal, but a Cannon is acceptable if you want to spend the points elsewhere.

If you've got Dire Avengers or Storm Guardians inside, the WS should have an anti-vehicle weapon. I prefer EML, because I've got other means of dealing with AV14, but depending on the rest of your army, a BL is great choice.

I think it's worth pointing out that (IMHO at least) play-testing and personal experience outweighs any advice we can give you, so if you've used Bright Lances and found them worth it, then I'd say stick with them...

Just Dave wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that (IMHO at least) play-testing and personal experience outweighs any advice we can give you, so if you've used Bright Lances and found them worth it, then I'd say stick with them...

This. And, your local meta-game matters a ton in what will be more effective in your army list.

well put dave and grakmar META plays the biggest roll in lists outside of big tournys. I run alot of anti mech cause half the players here are MEQ marine

I run Dire Avenger-filled Wave Serpents and give them Bright Lances, firstly twin-linked means they're hands down the most accurate Bright Lances in your army, secondly the Dire Avengers can handle infantry brilliantly but can't scratch tanks so the Wave Serpent does it for them. More rapidly-firing weapons (scatter lasers, starcannons) show up on my Falcons and Vypers since they're not as hurt by BS 3 and no twin-linked as Bright Lances are.

EldarN00b wrote:

I currently use twin linked Bright Lances but people keep telling me they aren't worth the points (but 4 destroyed Ork Battlewagons say differently).

You were pretty lucky with the brightlances. Even on a twin-linked chassis, most of the shots on single-shot Eldar weapons statistically go to waste.

First you gotta hit (25% of shots miss)
Then you gotta damage the target (50% of the hits fail to damage AR12+)
Then you often have to get through a cover save (50% of the damaging hits go away)
Then you gotta come up with a 4+ on the damage table to do something worthwhile.

So overall, about 91% of your brightlance shots fail to score an "immobilize" or better result on your target vehicle (about 82% if there's no cover on the target) and a big chunk of these hits do nothing at all.

And for this weapon you pay a *minimum* of 195 points--for the tank, the gun, and the absolute cheapest squad of 5 DAs that allows you to buy the tank.

Most armies can get a much more worthwhile antitank weapon for 195 points.

(A missile launcher's odds of damaging AR12 vehicles is identical to the brightlance; against AR13-14 its odds get increasingly worse).

I would advise against bringing anything but the mandatory shuricannon on a waveserpent. They shouldn't be the hard hitting units in your army. I usually only ever put a brightlance on one just to get a little more anti tank. If you put star engines on them and they already did their job deploying the squad you can start ramming everything on the table at ridiculous distances. I rammed a monolith at 36" and we both rolled ones :\

Helvost wrote:I would advise against bringing anything but the mandatory shuricannon on a waveserpent. They shouldn't be the hard hitting units in your army. I usually only ever put a brightlance on one just to get a little more anti tank. If you put star engines on them and they already did their job deploying the squad you can start ramming everything on the table at ridiculous distances. I rammed a monolith at 36" and we both rolled ones :\

I 100% disagree. Wave Serpents are effectively highly survivable and maneuverable Razorbacks. The fact that they get a cool gun is what makes Eldar viable at the moment.

And, Star Engines work during the shooting phase, so you can't ram 36".

Ramming gives you +1 damage for each 3" you moved "that turn." There aren't any restrictions that prevent you from ramming in the shooting phase, so your movement during the movement phase is still movement during that turn.

But anything over 21" maxes out at Str10 anyway. Falcons are better for ramming because of the holofields.

There's one key difference between razorbacks and wave serpents (besides the extra point of armor) as a firepower unit. Razorbacks are half the base cost, BS4, and even their most expensive weapon option is 10 points less than a brightlance. Nine razorbacks in an army at 1850 is not hard to do at all, but nine wave serpents won't leave you enough points for a viable army.

For weapons I am a fan of scatter lasers, IMHO this gives the best all around setup for a reasonable amount of points. I don't like to rely on WS as can opener, so I will not give them bright lance or EML (those work great on a falcon, though).

Bright Lances or scatter lasers are you best best depends on how much heavy armor your against as to wich you need more of