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#1 - Can Space Marine Terminators use Drop Pods as long as they abide by the transport capacity? The rules seem to imply that they're only prohibited from riding in Rhinos and Razorbacks.

#2 - Can Vulkan He'stan take an Honour Squad or a Command Squad as his retinue?

#1: No, they cannot.

#2: He can't take either.

1 - Models in terminator armor can indeed ride in drop pods... except that there is no way to get a drop pod for a terminator unit. Being a dedicated transport that has to start the game in reserve, it is not possible to get a terminator unit inside one. Characters in terminator armor can join a unit in a pod, however. Space Wolves Wolf Guard terminators are also able to get a drop pod, but it seems like you're talking about just standard marines.

2 - First of all, a retinue is a very specific unit that makes an independent character not targetable separately, so if that's what you're asking, then no they are not a retinue. Even if they were, Vulkan is not a chapter master or a captain, so I don't believe he qualifies for either of those units to be added to the army.

Edit: ninja'd

lledwey wrote:1 - Models in terminator armor can indeed ride in drop pods... except that there is no way to get a drop pod for a terminator unit. Being a dedicated transport that has to start the game in reserve, it is not possible to get a terminator unit inside one. Characters in terminator armor can join a unit in a pod, however. Space Wolves Wolf Guard terminators are also able to get a drop pod, but it seems like you're talking about just standard marines.

Black Templars also have access to Drop Pods for Terminators.

As far as question 1 goes, there is nothing in the Terminator rules that disallow their use of a Drop Pod. What you need to be looking at is how dedicated transports work.

Termies cannot select a Drop Pod as a DT, but Drop Pods may only be selected as a DT. What this means is that the only unit that is allowed to start the game inside the DT, is the unit the DT was purchased for. As you cannot purchase the Drop Pod for the Termies, they may not start the game inside the pod. As such, a Drop Pod is of no use to a Terminator.

I am basing this off of the Vanilla Marines Codex. The same is also true for the BA codex. I remember hearing something about SW Termies having some kind of exemption, but I do not have that codex handy so do not take my word for it.

**Edit** Ninjad

Ok, let me throw a couple more things in.

#1- This is straight from the GW W40K faq/errata:
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620227a_Space_Marines_Version_1_2.pdf

IDK why anyone would drop an empty pod, unless the unit was in reserve and you decided on it's entry turn that it was more advantageous to march them in. But if you can use an empty drop pod, why can't you march in the unit you bought it for but fill the DP with a Terminator unit?

I know that people might be thinking, "Why in Heaven's name would you want to use a DP for Termies when they can already Deep Strike?" There are two reasons. First, DPs don't suffer mishaps from terrain and other units like deep striking Termies do. Second, if you have enough DPs (which I do), you can drop them on the 1st turn and get your Termies into the fight sooner.

#2- In the GW Errata/FAQ it says the following:
Page 104 – Mighty heroes, second paragraph. The third sentence should be changed as follows: “Each also has the option for an extra HQ unit […]”

So Vulkan is a "Mighty Hero." And in the Codex itself it says, "Though he no longer commands a company of his own, (Vulkan) He'stan can draw upon any and all of the Salamanders' resources to aid in his search." (emphasis mine) The phrase "any and all" seems pretty definitive to me. The way I interpret that is he can have an Honour Guard. The other thing the rules may mean is that Chapter Masters and Captains get one additional free HQ choice, but Vulkan doesn't, which makes sense. So he can call upon an Honour Guard, but it counts as an additional HQ .

Here's another angle. Isn't it permissible, according to the rules, to design an entire Chapter and a Chapter Master with your own name as long as you abide by the Codex rules and stats? Why couldn't I create a Chapter called NotSalamanders with a CM named NotVulkan......and assign him a retinue?

Arcantyr wrote:Ok, let me throw a couple more things in.

#1- This is straight from the GW W40K faq/errata:
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620227a_Space_Marines_Version_1_2.pdf

IDK why anyone would drop an empty pod, unless the unit was in reserve and you decided on it's entry turn that it was more advantageous to march them in. But if you can use an empty drop pod, why can't you march in the unit you bought it for but fill the DP with a Terminator unit?

Basic Rule Book, p67 wrote:

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters).

Arcantyr wrote:Ok, let me throw a couple more things in.

#1- This is straight from the GW W40K faq/errata:
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620227a_Space_Marines_Version_1_2.pdf

IDK why anyone would drop an empty pod, unless the unit was in reserve and you decided on it's entry turn that it was more advantageous to march them in. But if you can use an empty drop pod, why can't you march in the unit you bought it for but fill the DP with a Terminator unit?

I know that people might be thinking, "Why in Heaven's name would you want to use a DP for Termies when they can already Deep Strike?" There are two reasons. First, DPs don't suffer mishaps from terrain and other units like deep striking Termies do. Second, if you have enough DPs (which I do), you can drop them on the 1st turn and get your Termies into the fight sooner.

#2- In the GW Errata/FAQ it says the following:
Page 104 – Mighty heroes, second paragraph. The third sentence should be changed as follows: “Each also has the option for an extra HQ unit […]”

So Vulkan is a "Mighty Hero." And in the Codex itself it says, "Though he no longer commands a company of his own, (Vulkan) He'stan can draw upon any and all of the Salamanders' resources to aid in his search." (emphasis mine) The phrase "any and all" seems pretty definitive to me. The way I interpret that is he can have an Honour Guard. The other thing the rules may mean is that Chapter Masters and Captains get one additional free HQ choice, but Vulkan doesn't, which makes sense. So he can call upon an Honour Guard, but it counts as an additional HQ .

Here's another angle. Isn't it permissible, according to the rules, to design an entire Chapter and a Chapter Master with your own name as long as you abide by the Codex rules and stats? Why couldn't I create a Chapter called NotSalamanders with a CM named NotVulkan......and assign him a retinue?

#1 As just mentioned, only the unit the dedicated transport was purchased for may the start the game in it. So it either drops with that unit, or it drops empty.

#2 No, Vulkan cannot have an Honour Guard. The line you are quoting is fluff, not rules.

Arcantyr wrote:
IDK why anyone would drop an empty pod, unless the unit was in reserve and you decided on it's entry turn that it was more advantageous to march them in. But if you can use an empty drop pod, why can't you march in the unit you bought it for but fill the DP with a Terminator unit?

It is a frequent tactic if you have two units with drop pods that you take a third drop pod for a unit that you have no intention of podding in. This way you always get to bring both of your podding units in.

And, as has been explained three of four times above, you should go read up on dedicated transports. Only the unit that the dedicated transport was bought for can start the game embarked in the dedicated transport. How exactly are you planning on getting the terminators int the drop pod when they are not allowed to start the game embarked in some other unit's dedicated transport?

Ok, #1 has been answered conclusively.

What about #2 and creating a generic Chapter Master and giving him Vulkan's attributes? According to the SM Codex, pg. 127 - Ultramarines and other chapters, you can use the model and rules of a named character for those of a mighty hero of another chapter. So the stats of Forgefather Vulkan of the Salamanders could be used for "Chapter Master Hephaestus of the Fireflies," as an example.

Arcantyr wrote: So the stats of Forgefather Vulkan of the Salamanders could be used for "Chapter Master Hephaestus of the Fireflies," as an example.

Whatever you choose to call him, if you're using Vulkan's rules for him, you only use Vulkan's rules for him. Calling him a Chapter Master doesn't grant him a Chapter Master's options.

The name of a Chapter Master is not enough to field an Honor Guard. The only named characters able to field honor guard are Pedro Cantor and Mareneus Calgar, because of the "Master of"-rules explicitly stating so(pg. 129/130 of your codex), not because of fluff or them being chapter masters.

If you field Chapter Master Hephaestus of the Fireflies, he would have all rules of Vulkan He'stan, including being unable to field an honor guard or command squad.
If Vulkan He'stan wanted to draw upon the the chapters resources to be assisted by an honor guard, he would have to ask the Chapter Master they are guarding to come.

Slightly unrelated question.

Can you put an IC in a DT without the assigned squad?

So could you put He'stan in a drop pod by himself?

Cheers

Andrew

VUlkan is NOT a chapter master - read his fluff. He goes off hunting for relics, so is generally not a good choice to lead a chapter....

Yeah, the Salamanders have a Chapter Master, Tu'Shan. Like others are saying, that whole 'use a named character as your own custom one in your own chapter' is for fluff reasons. You take the special character, use him exactly as listed, with a different name. So by the rules, you couldn't even say he is chapter master Hephaestus of the Fireflies. He would have to be Hephaestus of the Fireflies, seeker of the relics of the Fireflies chapter, etc.

1) Only BT and SW can put terminators in drop pods. That said you can send down an empty pod that was bought for say a rifleman dread so that you have a locater beacon on the field when the termis teleport in.

2) Vulkan has the rank of Forgefather, not Chapter Master or Captain. The quote was from the fluff not the actual rules. With a permisive ruleset you have to be told that you CAN take an Honor Guard or Command squad.

In rergards to IC in an empty DT,I would say yes.The reason being that a DT can carry the squad or be empty,+ any ICs.This,to me,means

The squad and IC(s).
Or
The Squad
Or
The IC
Or empty.

Deadshot wrote:In rergards to IC in an empty DT,I would say yes.The reason being that a DT can carry the squad or be empty,+ any ICs.This,to me,means

The squad and IC(s).
Or
The Squad
Or
The IC
Or empty.

You misquoted that, a dedicated transport can carry the squad it was purchased for, and any attached independent characters. Which means that the transport cannot be deployed with only an IC in it, since he's not attached to the squad, and the squad is what allows him to embark in it (at the start of the game at least).

That's wrong. A dedicated transport carrying just an IC is neither empty, nor transporting the unit. Thus this is illegal.

edit: Ninja'ed by Lone Dragoon

Thanks for the input, guys. I guess I'll settle for attaching Vulkan to a Vanguard Vet squad instead. :-)

Arcantyr wrote:Thanks for the input, guys. I guess I'll settle for attaching Vulkan to a Vanguard Vet squad instead. :-)

Keep in mind that if you do then you cannot use heroic intervention...assuming they have jump packs.

From expieriance,try this.


Select a cheap unit like a 5 man Tac squad,give them a Locator beacon Drop Pod,and put them and Vulkan in it.Next Turn,use the beacon to bring an Assault Terminator Squad in,and move Vulkan to join them.Next Turn they would be an almost unstopable force.Give them TH/SS.Not only do the whole unit now have 2+/3++,but the TH are master crafted.

Or stop faffing about with space people-missiles and buy them a real man's transport:

a Land Raider.

You could do both.

Happygrunt wrote:#1: No, they cannot.

Yes they can.

You can't buy a drop pod for a termie squad but IC's in termie armour can be attached to a squad in a drop pod.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Or stop faffing about with space people-missiles and buy them a real man's transport:

a Land Raider.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. Running Redeemers with TH/SS Termies, which is a thing of beauty with Vulkan. The problem is, because he's an IC but not an Eternal Warrior, he gets crushed when he fails to save from just one Str 8+ wound. It's happened a number of times and it's annoying as hell. So I'm thinking of different ways improve his survivability.

One solution which helps is to equip with LCs some if not all of the Veterans/Termies that I put him with. Coupled with his attacks, it gives me a good chance of killing outright whatever he's attacking before they get their swings on him.