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I play against a guy at my flgs who occasionally plays Dark Angels. I'm not familiar with the codex but he says he has the ability to DS a unit of assault termies without scatter on the first turn. My purifiers can't stand up to the assault termies TH/SS in CC. At least not all five of them. So my new brainstorm is to have my purgation squad hop out of the back of their razor and unload into them. I'm making some assumptions based on what he's told me about the DA so if that's correct I'm setting up a deployment that would allow him an obvious location to land his termies thinking their safe and within assault range of a juicy target. On my turn I disembark my purgation squad and fire nailing three of them. The problem I have is the disembarkation - I think. If a heavy unit disembarks out of a vehicle that hasn't moved can they fire? Is the act of disembarking considered movement for heavy weapons thus preventing me from firing on the termies? On page 67 the first paragraph says a unit can move normally after disembarking but the second bullet point seems a little foggy on that point. My hole counter attack hinges on being able to shoot a heavy weapon upon disembarking from the razor.

Why not just have the purgation squad stand behind the razorback and astral aim THROUGH it? They get a 3+ invul from the storm shields.

Also, I'm pretty skeptical about the first turn deep strike without scatter. It's been a long time since I've looked at the DA codex, but I don't think they have a guy that gives them Mordraks special ability.

And even if they could DS no scatter first turn they certainly cant assault the same turn, meaning you'd effectively empty all of your army into his termies, which seems to be a big part to your trouble dealing with him.

Strike squads and interceptors have warp quake. If you go first cast off warp quake and watch as his termies mishap.

I believe only vetran termies can DS without scatter, since I used to play Dark Angels. My opinoin on any termies is to shoot them with everything you can to soften them up, them CC for the kill. Jump Assualt Marines chew up termies with my encounters with Blood Claw marines, Jump Troops do work well.

If you assault with the Purifiers,they get to use Clensing Flame to kill a couple beforehand.If they have TH,then they should stike first.Give them either Halberds or Flachions,because they don't gain an invulnerable in cc with the swords.They will have to rely on their 3++,so that should kill enought to win you the combat,or if not then they will be seriously diminished.

It's called deathwing assault and Belial is what allows up to half of the terminator squads to deepstrike first turn, although I thought that they all still scattered. (Perhaps Belial's squad gets in no scatter, I do not recall)

Use the aforementioned warp quake or take some servo skulls to push the no deepstrike bubble.

Also GK have something similar... Mordrak the ghost knight dude has first turn deepstrike with no scatter... and BA Dante has DS no scatter, although his unit has to roll reserves to come on.

Belial doesn't give Deathwing Terminators the Deathwing Assault rule, DA Terminators have it with or without them. Belial only makes them Troops choices. What will allow Deathwing to DS without scatter is if he positions them within 6" of a Ravenwing Bike as they all have Teleport Homers built in. What you should focus fire on in the first two turns isn't his Terminators, but his Ravenwing bikers if he has any. And if he is running any Attack Bikes, target priority them first as they are deployed separately (Combat Squads) automatically and give up free KPs. Once he has no more Ravenwing, try to stay 18"-24" away from his Terminators and just unload into each unit until you kill it or drop it down to about half strength before charging in with your Force Weapons. Then rinse and repeat.

My idea was to give the appearance there's a safe place for him to land. If I don't he'll land somewhere not of my choosing. Basically I want to set a trap - if he falls for it great if not I'm no worse off. Most of it hinges on him forgetting there's a razor full of psycannons sitting less than 24" from where he's just landed and has to sit through my shooting phase before he can move. My purifier list has four razors and a rhino (holding the purgation squad). Should he first turn DS in the spot I left open for him I want to knock off three of his termies before a purifier squad walks in and takes out the other two. If I only need the purgation squad to get him to one that's great. If it takes a purifier squad worth of stombolters that's fine. After that I will be less happy because that means I need to use up to 3 of my psyrifle dreads and HBs from the razors that I would prefer using on the aforementioned bikers and a speeder on turn one. So the linchpin of this trap is being able to disembark and fire a heavy weapon (psycannons).

invest in 2 strike squads in rhinos. its only 280 pts and 2 troops slots.


you can cover your entire army with them and keep him from deep striking near you.

then you shoot him full of bolter and psycannon shots as he hoofs it accross the board(terminators die to massed bolter fire, not CC attacks)

GK really shouldn't be having too much trouble with any Deep Striking armies... some do though, which is why IMO Crowe/Purifier spam and Draigo/termie armies aren't the greatest choices in the Dex.

Servo skulls should prevent pesky Bike scout moves, which in turn prevents accurate close range DS of Deathwings on first turn. Servo skulls also should mess with non-homer assisted DSing. After that, Interceptors and Strike Squads using Warp Quake will keep the DS Termies away, allowing you have have enough room to shoot them down without risking being assaulted. Stay out of CC with the TH/SS termies, but you should do fairly well in CC against non-assault termies if you have to, shooting is best though.



As for your question on shooting heavy weapons after disembarking. No, you normally can't shoot a heavy weapon after disembarking. However, Psycannons are Heavy 4 or Assault 2, so you can fire when disembarking, but you're only getting 2 shots per psycannon, rather than 4.

Deadshot wrote:If you assault with the Purifiers,they get to use Clensing Flame to kill a couple beforehand.If they have TH,then they should stike first.Give them either Halberds or Flachions,because they don't gain an invulnerable in cc with the swords.They will have to rely on their 3++,so that should kill enought to win you the combat,or if not then they will be seriously diminished.

cleansing flame will kill 1/12th of the terminators and you have a fair chance of being horribly mauled in CC, you probably want to shoot them.

I thought that would have gone without saying.

And what do you base the 1/12 on?The purifiers strike first,killing a fair few before they die,then you opponent won't be able to kill you off.

concentrate your army on on section of the battlefield.. let him deepstrike.. let him assault one of your units.. but make shure almost your entire army is in assault range of that combat.. turn 2 assault him.. squish him and flock out with your army to go for the objective or whatever.. next time he'll think twice before deepstriking ^^

Deadshot wrote:I thought that would have gone without saying.
And what do you base the 1/12 on?The purifiers strike first,killing a fair few before they die,then you opponent won't be able to kill you off.

Grundz wrote:
cleansing flame will kill 1/12th of the terminators

^^

I should have hit enter.Sorry

Yeah,so what do you base it on?

Deadshot wrote:I should have hit enter.Sorry

Yeah,so what do you base it on?

Seriously? Its based on simple math.

with cleansing flame, 1/2 of models are wounded. Termies have 2+ armor, so fail normal saves 1/6 of the time. 1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12
Therefore when cleansing flame is used, 1 out of every 12 terminators will die.

Not neccesarily.Math is good,but dice beat math every time.It could be that all the termies die for CF,or a Space Pope beats Skulltaker and 20 bloodletters in combat.


But I see now.

Deadshot wrote:Not neccesarily.Math is good,but dice beat math every time.It could be that all the termies die for CF,or a Space Pope beats Skulltaker and 20 bloodletters in combat.


But I see now.

I would say dice follow math (within standard deviations.)

So on average you will kill 1/12 terms. Sure could kill all 12, but its not something to build a strategy around.

No it isn't.What you do is counterstrike.


Use either
A grandmaster to give units counterattack
OR
deep strike your own terminatorsd to counter attack

Take Coteaz and shoot them in the other players turn when they land. Then shoot them again in your turn and assault with a unit and somebody who has Psychotrope grenades.

Deadshot wrote:Not neccesarily.Math is good,but dice beat math every time.It could be that all the termies die for CF,or a Space Pope beats Skulltaker and 20 bloodletters in combat.


But I see now.

Dice follow statistics, which is math.


the Statistics say that you will only wound 1/2 the terminators. It is possable, but unlikely, that you would all of them. its also possable, but highly unlikely, that they will fail all of their saves.


Smart players will wiegh the odds and consider all the choices.

in this case, its best for the Purifiers to shoot at the terminators while backing away. No chance that the terminators will shoot back and you can force alot more saves then with the Cleansing Flame and CC attacks.

Deadshot wrote:Not neccesarily.Math is good,but dice beat math every time.It could be that all the termies die for CF,or a Space Pope beats Skulltaker and 20 bloodletters in combat.


But I see now.

Lolcano.

Attach a techmarine with rad grenades and psychotroke grenades and charge them. You might reroll misses, or hit automatically, or some of his guys might attack themselves.

Even if you roll a 1 and none of that happens, have the purifiers cast cleansing flame to cause some damage, then have the techmarine cast hammerhand. Rad grenades make them T3, and you are S5, so you wound on a 2+ they're dead. Insult to injury, have a grand master give them the re-roll 1's to wound ability.

Seriously? You're playing Grey Knights and are having trouble against Deep Strikers???

Step 1: Take Strike Squads
Step 2: Cast Warp Quake
Step 3: Watch him mishap has he deep strikes near you

How is this a difficult conept to grasp?

Or Interceptors.They are more expensive,but they can extend the WQ further

How many points are you playing? Is this just one squad you are worried about? I just fail to see how this could be detrimental, grey knights have some of the most ridiculous troops in the game. You have an entire turn to shoot him before he can assault. I really don't see any need to tailor your list to handle 1 squad of assault termies. As far as unloading from a transport you cannot fire heavies because it counts as moving. Relying on him to forget that you have psycannons is not really a tactic however :/ but neither is trying to rely on dice to wipe out an entire squad of assault termies with cleansing flame when statistics state you will kill 1/12. I just think out of every army in the game right now Grey Knights should have the least trouble handling a Deep Striking squad of termies.

Fortune and Dice Gods favour those who travel head first into an unwinable fight.At least in my expieriance.

Deadshot wrote:Fortune and Dice Gods favour those who travel head first into an unwinable fight.At least in my expieriance.

The instant you start assuming the dice will roll in your favor in an extreme way they will start rolling average.

Average in this situation is very VERY bad for you.


You are courting Lady Luck. She is sure hot, but she is also fickle. Go with Lady Average. She isn't quite as pretty, but she's around more often and she won't go away.

Deadshot wrote:Fortune and Dice Gods favour those who travel head first into an unwinable fight.At least in my expieriance.

And your experience has been painstakingly recorded, and analyzed using Excel spreedsheets? What was that? No, it hasn't? Well then, you are suffering from memory bias, where you remember the unusual events and discount the normal occurrences. People do this all the time, including yours truly ( I more easily remember the times in games I rolled really well or poorly rather than the times my rolls hovered around the results expected by the odds ). It is important to realize this effect is real in order to recognize it and not overly trust your memory. Unless people are playing with loaded dice then no, the dice do not favor those who charge into an un-winnable fight.