Psyk-out Grenades versus GK's

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Justicar Cliesthenes**

would the whole squad of GK's assaulted by GK's strike at I1? or only the Justicar and IC (because of the B.O.P. rule). Thanks

**Tracer Bullet**

I actually asked this one before as well and the answer that seems to be the consensus is that the whole squad (and any attached IC) would go at I1 because the whole squad is considered to be a single psyker and so equally affected by the grenades. The Justicar is only picked out for perils or attacks that specifically target psykers.

**Valkyrie**

Actually, if a GK with a Halberd is affected by Psyk-Out, would be strike at I1 or I3 due to the Halberd?

**Jidmah**

At initiative 1. The GK FAQ randomly determined that halberds don't work if your initiative got reduced to a specific value.

**Deadshot**

Yet Lash whips reduce you to Int 1,but modifiers still apply?GW doesn't like Nids any more.They went from the army fighting SM in the 4th ed starter set,to being the most downgraded army ever.

**Jidmah**

This is specific to halberds. Other modifiers would work against psyk-out grenades.

**abaddonsdrummer**

Yep, I would agree with that too and say the whole squad strikes at I1.

**Eldanar**

I've seen this one argued both ways, as it effects everyone, or it only effects the KotF. The key language seems to be are the grenades considered to be an "attack" against psykers, or are they something else.

**nosferatu1001**

They are not an attack; they do not match the definition of an attack in the rulebook.

**Deadshot**

Eevry model is a psyker.How else would they be able to use powers if the KotF is dead?They are a single psyker for the purposes of how many psykers are in range for a Culexus,or similar.

The whole squad is Int1

**Eldanar**

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are not an attack; they do not match the definition of an attack in the rulebook.

I believe the definition of "attack" from the rulebook you are referring to concernes the definition of the attack characteristic for a models profile. I don't know if the rulebook defines "attack" any other way or not (I didn't check).

However, the Crucible of Malediction does not have an attack profile, nor would it be considered an attack per se, under the narrow definition you are referring to. Rather, I think GW meant this term to be used in its more common and broader sense; you could simply substitute the term "negative effect" and come up with what I think is intended. Particularly in light of the ruling on COM.

Deadshot wrote:Eevry model is a psyker. How else would they be able to use powers if the KotF is dead? They are a single psyker for the purposes of how many psykers are in range for a Culexus, or similar.

The whole squad is Int1

This argument I can kind of agree with, and think might have some validity.

**Vindicare-Obsession**

As a GK player myself I would have to agree. We are a brotherhood of psykers and anything that effects psykers as a group affects our entire unit b/c we all weild force weapons as it is.

**Lukus83**

Our group plays it as 1 model in the squad, though it is just a house rule. The fact is that this an ambiguous situation. Make sure you talk to your gaming group or a TO at an event to get a clear answer and just go from there.

**Snickerdoodle**

Psyk-out only effect 1 of the members of the squad. Read the B.O.P. rules. Only one model takes the effects.

**nosferatu1001**

No, YOU read the BOP rules. Prove the grenades are an attack

Oh wait, theyre not. Looks like youre wrong.

**Deadshot**

The BoP rules say they(plural,whole squad,)are treated as a single psyker for purposes of powers and Perils.

**Vindicare-Obsession**

And affects that target psykers

**Deadshot**

Psychic tests,Perils,Culexii etc

**Vindicare-Obsession**

My outlook is that since the unit counts as a single psyker for things that affect psykers that means that anything that targets a single psyker targets the unit as a whole.

**Sir_Prometheus**

The whole squad is one psyker. Each and every GK is part of that psyker. It affects all of them. This has the interesting effect that halberds are almost meaningless in a GK on GK fight.

**nosferatu1001**

Only for whoever gets the charge....

**Vindicare-Obsession**

I think what he's trying to say is that even in that case the other side is attacking first as it is. I think that game would be all about who can hit the unit first. I hate games like that......

**Snickerdoodle**

BOP says all effects, psykout grenades causes an effect, only one GK is effected. RAW is pretty clear. Read the Crucible FAQ.

**nosferatu1001**

No, BOP says all *attacks* Read your codex and note that you're wrong.
Psyk outs are NOT an attack, UNLIKE Crucible.

**Tracer Bullet**

To back up my original statement a bit and maybe help Nos convince some people, would most people agree that something would be considered an attack if it would be capable of hurting (read: removing a model) a squad? If that's the case then psyk-out grenades are clearly not an attack where the Crucible is as it has the possibility of removing models and so therefore invokes the B.O.P. rule while the grenades simply affect all psykers which all Grey Knights are.

**Deadshot**

All Gk are psykers,otherwise they wouldn't be able to cast powers without a Justicar or KotF,and unable to wield force weapons.They are all Int 1.

On the fluff side,they wouldn't be in the chapter if they weren't psykers.

**Vindicare-Obsession**

agreed on all accounts. The problem is that most rules that affect psykers dont account for the fact that there is now a codex made up of units of psykers.

**DevianID**

Using the broad definition of attack, the grenades only hurt the justicar who is the focus of psychic power--just like the CoM only hits 1 model.

Using the strictist definition of attack in the rulebook, pretty much nothing in the game that would hit psykers would fall under the perview of the BoP rule, right? Including CoM. Thus, we should probably not consider 'attack' in the strictist, most rules-lawyery way.

**Snickerdoodle**

Just for the record, I use DCA and Crusaiders, with maybe 2 psykers in the army. I would love it if Psykout grenades effected everyone ( one of the guys I play regularly plays Draigowing). BOP + COM faq pretty much clear up the entire arguement continuing further is just dumb.

**Eldanar**

The BOP faq I am familiar with. i'm not sure what you are referencing with the "COM" faq?