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Me and my friends are almost never using retinues. I know that the IC becomes and upgrade character as long as the retinue is alive. But if he gets killed because of wound allocation, is he considered a KillPoint even if the retinue is still alive?

Yes, the IC and his retinue each count as a kill point. Covered in the Kill Point rules.

Oddly enough, it seems Retinues are mostly phased out of the current codices

Black Templars, Tyranids and many others still have retinues.

No retinues in Tyranids. I assume you're thinking of Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard, but that's not a retinue not least because the Hive Tyrant isn't an IC.

Black Templars don't have a retinues either, just funky command squad rules.

The Tyrant Guard are a retinue.The shieldwall special rule allows the Tyrant to join them as a retinue.The don't take up a FOC slot,and can only be taken per Hive Tyrant.

Deadshot wrote:The Tyrant Guard are a retinue.The shieldwall special rule allows the Tyrant to join them as a retinue.The don't take up a FOC slot,and can only be taken per Hive Tyrant.

Does this mean the Tyrant can't be singled out in CC? (i.e. wound allocation is treated like a squad?) I know that him being a MC would normally allow it, but does the retinue modify this?

Deadshot wrote:The Tyrant Guard are a retinue.The shieldwall special rule allows the Tyrant to join them as a retinue.The don't take up a FOC slot,and can only be taken per Hive Tyrant.

Wrong. 100% wrong.

The Tyrant joins "as an IC"; he is not compelled to join them (unlike a retinue), is not an IC once the unit is destroyed (unlike a retinue) and, in fact, follows no retinue rules whatsoever. The shieldwall rule at no point mentions they are a retinue.

He is, in fact, once he joins effectively an upgrade character. He becomes the equivalent of a Veteran Sergeant to them.

This means that he can't be picked out in shooting or close combat, and can attack in close combat by just being within 2" of a Guard in Base Contact.

So if the Tyrant joins a unit of Guard, they become 1 unit. Much like blobbing up Guardsmen.

It's not defined as a retinue by the wording, as jdjames said, retinues have almost been fully phased out.

It acts as a retinue based on special rules to nearly match the retinue rule, just as a unit that passes all ld/pinning tests without being fearless, is essentially fearless for every circumstance except being called fearless.

So no, the Tyrant cannot be picked out in assault,
but yes it counts as a separate killpoint as it was purchased as a separate unit.

Though this is up for argument, too, due to IG blob squad rule and the space marine combat squad rule. Whereas the combat squad specifically says the "created" squad counts as an additional kp, the blob squad does not indicate the opposite, but people have used the previously stated rule as precedent for a unit deployed as one to count as one, this nullified by the retinue clause making an IC no longer an IC, but must be deployed together, but becoming an IC should the retinue die.
This does not apply to Tyranid "retinue" though, as tyrants can join the guard squad mid game, and, in the event of their death, can not join other squads (unless of course you have a second guard squad).
So yes, arguments can be made for both sides as to whether or not it counts as a kp, if started as one unit.
But the stronger arguments are for the 2 kp camp.
Except in Rule Nazi games, where we explicitly try to exploit loopholes, I wouldn't even bring up any of that.
In fact all of that was a bunch of rule lawyering gobbledygook, so really none of what I said matters in a typical game of 40k.

As for the OP, yes, 2 kill points.

Edit: Ahh beat me to it on all counts.

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:(unless of course you have a second guard squad).

Hold on.Quick question.

If a Tyrant loses his guard,and joins a Guard squad that has lost its Tyrant(which now have rage and Furious charge),what happens to the Berserk Rampage?Does the rule disappear,does the Tyrant get it too?

Easy answer: No.
Longer answer: I don't have my rule book with me, but a squad made up of units that have a special rule, and those that don't, they typically all lose it. Ex: Grot squad with a runtherd; Runtherd loses waagh and mob rule because the grots don't have it. It should be under usr.
Hope that helped.

Thanks.Not that it is going to happen,because I have 1 Tyrant and 2 Guard.But thaty is useful.

Shopping list for the week

Eggs
Semi skimmed Milk
Finecast Hive Tyrant!!!

Hallowed - no, the Tyrant + TG is NOT a retinue. That is not up for debate.

It does not follow the rules for retinues, ergo it is NOT a separate KP. The fact it was bought as a separate FoC means nothing.

It kinda does.If both are killed,that's 2 KP.They don't take up an HQ slot,the Tyrant can't be singled out.They are a retinue,in all but name.

No, really, no. Please, provide some rules to disprove this.

ONE KILL POINT and ONE KILL POINT ONLY

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hallowed - no, the Tyrant + TG is NOT a retinue. That is not up for debate.

It does not follow the rules for retinues, ergo it is NOT a separate KP. The fact it was bought as a separate FoC means nothing.

I said arguments could be made for both sides. I know I tend to rant, but you could at least read it all if you're going to tell me I'm wrong.
I pointed out that RAW is unclear, and I personally play one way.

No, it isnt unclear, and Ive given the rules WHY it isnt unclear.

Firstly, the only way you can be a retinue is to be an IC usually (i.e., when you dont take the retinue) - a HT is NEVER an IC. NEVER.

Secondly - you have to become an IC again when the "retinue" is killed. Oh look, the HT is never an IC, so it doesnt fulfil this rule either.

The HT is never part of a retinue, and is therefore always 1 KP. You cannot prove otherwise.

Nos, you're strawmanning, but this could be because I was unclear.
I agree that it is not a retinue, as i said it never uses the word retinue, and therefore does not qualify under that entry in the BGB.

And I just looked at the FAQ,
Q#2)
"Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character?
A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only
exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant
Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues
(except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade
character with this unit) until the Guards are all
destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts
to the normal rules for monstrous creatures."

This unit follows the rules for retinues.

No, I am not strawmanning

Your contention is that the RAW is unclear. I proved it isnt.

Additionally, where are you getting that FAQ answer from? The Nid FAQ from 2010 linked here does not contain ANY of that text you just quoted.

So, no it is not a retinue. I dont know what FAQ you are reading but it is NOT the actual, current, FAQ

lol woops, that was the faq for the 4th ed dex.

Still if you start with 2 possible kill points, you cannot enact an action mid game to make them only one available kill point, without sacrificing a kill point. As a permissive rule set, there is nothing that gives you that ability.
I'll admit that if they start together, you're right, they are 1 kill point, as they can not separate, and begin and end as 1 unit.

But my point is that a unit that starts separately is 2 kill points, even if they find a way to merge, like necron warriors wbb'ing into a blob squad.
That has been my point all along, and so arguing against anything else is a strawman.

That hasnt been your argument. You were saying the RAW as to whether they were a retinue was unclear; it isnt.

IG blob squad. Starts as many kill points and becomes 1. There, proven wrong.

You also have nothing stating it cannot be done - the rules for Kill points simply requires you to count up the units that have been removed. Only one, at most, can be removed.

Blob squad joins during deployment. They cannot join/separate later.
A combat squad separates during deployment. They cannot join/separate later.
A tyrant may join a guard squad at any time. You're comparing Persians to Parisians.

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:Blob squad joins during deployment. They cannot join/separate later.
A combat squad separates during deployment. They cannot join/separate later.
A tyrant may join a guard squad at any time. You're comparing Persians to Parisians.

The availability of a KP is not set at the beginning of the game. It is a fluid thing that can change over the course of the game. For example, units that spawn other units create additional KPs, or SM unit combat squadding after the game has begun (as they move in from reserves).

If the Tyrant+Guard are killed when they are joined, that's only a single unit, and is only worth a single KP.

Seems like the majority opinion is against me.
When I play nids, I'll still let my opponent claim two kill points against my tyrant and guard, but it seems I have no ground to try to claim two kill points from someone who loses their tyrant and guards.
Not that that's much of an issue, I've never played against another nid player who uses guard

I have never played another nid player.Period.

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:
A combat squad separates during deployment. They cannot join/separate later.
A tyrant may join a guard squad at any time. You're comparing Persians to Parisians.

Incorrect. A combat squad separates on deployment, which can be before turn 1, during turn 1 (drop pod assault, separate on landing) or from turn 2 onwards (arriving from reserves)
It isnt opinion but rules. You work out the number of units destroyed - and when you join one unit IS NOT removed as a casualty

Lol you really don't stop arguing, do you?
I'm just gonna leave the thread, cuz this is seeming a little obsessive, lol.

I'm correcting the errors you're making, so others dont make the same.

For example using a 4th edition FAQ as if it were rules.