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im going to be taking the Book Of Secrets in my next game.

im wondering if once ive rolled my random spell if i can change it to the signature spell? the FAQ doesnt say i cant but want your guys opinion please.

Page 115 – Book of Secrets, second paragraph
Change to “Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use
the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may
not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible
force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast
table.”

As far as i see it he becomes a level 1 wizard and is treated like normal so roll one spell for him and then you can change it for the signature spell. The question i want to know it if the say exhalted hero has the mark of tzeentch does he have to use the lore of tzeentch even though it's not listed and with that could you do thos combo:

Exhalted hero
Mark of tzeentch
book of secrets
spell familiar (can he have an arcane item?)
necrotic phylactery
shield
Bsb
Third eye of tzeentch
Disc of tzeentch

If so this makes for one hard as Storm of magic hero! be it if he is 245 points. Perfect in 1000 points.

My understanding is that once the Book of Secrets is taken, the character counts as a wizard and thus has access to arcane items.

Sorcerers that take a mark must use spells from that mark's lore. Book of secrets turns you into a level 1 wizard, not a sorcerer, so you cant take spells from a sorc lore.

That remains up for debate. There is a line in the Chaos army book that makes it clear that they use the term "Sorcerer" for any model from that book with Wizard levels. Thus a model with the Book of Secrets can take Sorcerer only items like the Third Eye of Tzeentch.

Edit: From the FAQ, for extra clarity:

Q. Can a Daemon Prince who is a Wizard take ‘Sorcerer Only’
gifts? (p110 & 112)
A. Yes.

Now, while the FAQ specifically mentions a Daemon Prince, it shows that "Sorcerer Only" items are able to be taken by entries other than "Chaos Sorcerer" and "Sorcerer Lord".

James100 wrote:

As far as i see it he becomes a level 1 wizard and is treated like normal so roll one spell for him and then you can change it for the signature spell. The question i want to know it if the say exhalted hero has the mark of tzeentch does he have to use the lore of tzeentch even though it's not listed and with that could you do thos combo:

good point!! my lord is having the book and he has MoT so does that mean he has to use one of Tz spells as described in the rules??

Since it says 'may use' not 'must use' when detailing the lores accesible through the BoS, i'd say the use of the mark lores takes precedence.

Avatar 720 wrote:Since it says 'may use' not 'must use' when detailing the lores accesible through the BoS, i'd say the use of the mark lores takes precedence.

Nope, if the book is taken, the model is considered a Lv1 wizard with Fire/Shadows/Death spells. So if you take your sorcerer lord with the mark of Tzeentch, with the BoS he magically becomes a Lv1 wizard with the Lore of Fire or whatever.

Raulmichile wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Since it says 'may use' not 'must use' when detailing the lores accesible through the BoS, i'd say the use of the mark lores takes precedence.

Nope, if the book is taken, the model is considered a Lv1 wizard with Fire/Shadows/Death spells. So if you take your sorcerer lord with the mark of Tzeentch, with the BoS he magically becomes a Lv1 wizard with the Lore of Fire or whatever.

He will still have the MoT though, which is how this discussion came about in the first place. Using your logic, anything else the lord has purchased will also be lost if the Book is taken. You can't argue that the book affects marks but not magical items, it either affects everything, or it affects nothing.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Since it says 'may use' not 'must use' when detailing the lores accesible through the BoS, i'd say the use of the mark lores takes precedence.

Nope, if the book is taken, the model is considered a Lv1 wizard with Fire/Shadows/Death spells. So if you take your sorcerer lord with the mark of Tzeentch, with the BoS he magically becomes a Lv1 wizard with the Lore of Fire or whatever.

He will still have the MoT though, which is how this discussion came about in the first place. Using your logic, anything else the lord has purchased will also be lost if the Book is taken. You can't argue that the book affects marks but not magical items, it either affects everything, or it affects nothing.

He only becomes a Lv1 wizard with the Lore of fire/shadows/death, the mark of Tzeentch and whatever weapon, armour, magic item he has. I didn't say the model looses everything. The only thing that changes is that he becomes a fire/shadows/death wizard. Nothing more.

You'd be ignoring the Mark of Tzeentch, though. In the Sorcerer's rules, it states he may choose his spells from the lore of fire/death, or "...if he has a Mark of Chaos, must choose from the Lore appropriate to that mark".

It'd be the same for Mark of Slaanesh or Mark of Nurgle, the Book of Secrets does not change the fact that his Mark disallows the choice of spells from any other lore.

If the wizard was meant to use the spell solely chosen from the book, then it'd have stated that he 'must' use the Lore of Fire/Shadow/Death, but as it stands, the book only says "may" use the Lore of Fire/Shadow/Death; a sorcerer with a mark 'must' use the Lore of the respective mark; it makes no allowances for magical items, and the 'must' of the mark overrides the 'may' of the book.

Avatar: pushback. The rules for having the appropriate lore of your mark of Chaos are in the sorcerer section, not the Mark of Tzeentch section. You don't treat the bearer of the Book of Secrets as a sorcerer, you treat him as a level 1 wizard who knows spells from one of the three rulebook lores. I would say that the book overrides the mark.

Next question: once he takes the book, can he then take a scroll or other arcane item on top of it?

It still doesn't sort out Raulmichile's post about a Sorcerer Lord with it, since it's mentioned there.

As for magic items, he becomes a wizard, so yes,he can.

WoC FAQ wrote:Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use
the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death.

It says "treat the bearer as", not that they actually Are a wizard (for the purposes of taking arcane items).

WoC FAQ wrote:Q. Can a Daemon Prince who is a Wizard take ‘Sorcerer Only’
gifts? (p110 & 112)
A. Yes.

The DP IS a wizard, and can take daemonic gifts labelled "sorcerer only". It's a huge jump to say a model with book of secrets can take arcane items. That's adding rules that aren't there, imo. I don't see it being legal according to the RAW above.

BRB Page 504:

Only a character with a Wizard level can carry an Arcane item.

It says nothing about needing to be a wizard, only having a wizard level, which he gains by having the Book.

Yes, but it says "can":

Only a character with a Wizard level can carry an Arcane item.

If we took that quote in a vacuum, Daemon Princes could carry arcane items, too.

I don't know. I could be convinced about this, but I feel like the Book of Secrets should have an additional line saying the bearer can take an arcane item.

Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast table.”

The rule lays out that the bearer is treated AS a level 1 wizard (but they are still not necessarily a wizard, for the purposes of taking arcane items, I'd say). This pseudo-wizard, however, May use one of 3 lores, but May Not channel.

I just don't see how things that aren't explicitly laid out in this rule can be done, as he's not a true wizard. I.e., using a chaos lore (it's not on the list) or taking arcane items (not an ability that he is given on the list).

I would allow a person to trade the spell they roll for for the signature spell... afaik every model that can generate a spell can do so.

If we took that quote in a vacuum, Daemon Princes could carry arcane items, too.

No they couldn't since they don't have a magic item quota, only one for Chaos Gifts.

Avatar 720 wrote:

If we took that quote in a vacuum, Daemon Princes could carry arcane items, too.

No they couldn't since they don't have a magic item quota, only one for Chaos Gifts.

To be fair, the Daemon Prince could spend all of his ZERO points on magic gear to buy a ZERO point arcane item.

-Matt

If he had zero points to spend, then yes, but as it stands there's nothing that even allows him access to magic items.