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It states that the unit takes additional wounds for every point it loses combat by...i thought it was for every point you lose the break test by?

So lets say a unit of swordmasters charges a bunch of skeletons. The swordmasters win combat by a huge amount obviously(lets say 15). The skeletons are still steadfast. Do the skeletons take a LD check on unmodified LD, and if it fails by 1, take 1 wound with no saves allowed? Or do the skeletons automatically take 15 wounds with no saves allowed?

Nope, every point you lose the combat by.

Daemonic Instability works a little how you think Unstable works

So in the example they take 15 wounds automatically?

Yes, they take 15 additional wounds with no saves of any type allowed.

Yep. For a while Vamps could use the regen banner, but thankfully 8th stopped that.

Hmm undead arent as good i thought then, since you can just run a hammer unit into a large block of skeletons and wipe them out that way, while normally you would get tarpitted by halbrediers/skaven slaves/etc.

Also makes swarms pretty pointless. They cant kill enough with only 5 s2 attacks per base.

Synergy. You dont send swarms into the front. Also you can raise skellies and ghouls very very fast with the rightt set up.

TK have a banner that has a bound spell (power level 5) that raises D6+2 models in the unit back from the dead, and can be used every turn, and every time an augment spell from the lore of nekhara is cast on a unit(s) the unit(s) regains D3+1 models. don't know about vampires though

nosferatu1001 wrote:Synergy. You dont send swarms into the front. Also you can raise skellies and ghouls very very fast with the rightt set up.

You don't use swarms at all.
They are so easy to kill, all they do is give away combat res, which causes crumble to everything nearby.

-Matt

The part your overlooking is that those same skels are unbreakable, so you have to kill all of them in order to get away. With a vamp or 3 casting invocation, maybe donating WS, or in the front rank chopping up yo dudes, it works out fairly well.

Kura wrote:The part your overlooking is that those same skels are unbreakable, so you have to kill all of them in order to get away. With a vamp or 3 casting invocation, maybe donating WS, or in the front rank chopping up yo dudes, it works out fairly well.

Uh yes but i can actually kill all of them thanks to the unstable rule. All i have to do is send in a hammer unit and iwn CR by a huge amount.

If it was say, 50 halbrediers, i would be stuck there whole game due to steadfast.

Except youre not going to do that in one turn. So on the vamps turn the unit is back t full strtenght, and theyve also flank charged you. Or bypassed your hammer.

But you cant resurrect all of the dead models in one turn, unless he gets very unlucky with dispelling.

And IIRC tomb kings have worse resurrecting than vampires.

Yeah, Vamps do have it way better.

Still, it's entirely dependant on the magic phase, so if you roll low or are unlucky with casting you can be screwed over.

Why do TK have it worse than Vamps

The main Vamp spell gives D6+1 models IIRC and the ultimate is 2D6+3 or so

TK have 4 augment spells, 3 of which can effect multiple units, and each unit effected regains D3+1 each due to the lore attribute, one of them is a signature spell as well, so we can regain alot, also, we have the banner I mentioned before, so that is quite good

Tomb Kings aren't worse, but different.
Vampires get D6 with the basic, 3D6 with the big one (which can heal characters, and be spread around several units), vampires can in a magic phase add ~15 models to a single unit.
Tomb Kings can res the same numbers, but not into a single unit.
When I play vampires, I want to try and hit weak points in the enemy line and only have 1 unit that really needs replacements.
If I played TK, I'd try and hit the whole enemy line at once, so that I could be doing damage and recovering losses in all my units.


If you're out classed against vampires in the magic phase, try and hit as many of his units at once as possible. He'll struggle to keep up with replacements.
If you're out classed by TK magic phase, try to hit 1 unit really hard.

-Matt

But TK can't outheal vampires unless you have multiple units taking casaulties, your mage is within 12 inches of all of them and you have enough dice to cast boosted augments twice or more.

Question wrote:But you cant resurrect all of the dead models in one turn, unless he gets very unlucky with dispelling.

And IIRC tomb kings have worse resurrecting than vampires.

You dont need to res all of them, if the unit is huge to begin with. Have you never seen the ghoul wall that people run? Good luck with ever killing all of that before your own army is dead.

How are t3 naked models at 8 points each hard to kill without mass resurrecting?

Gotcha, you havent seen the ghoul wall then. Or at least not one run competently.

S4 poisoned with 2 attacks means that they can kill you quicker than you kill them, res'ing included. Also at Ws6 / 7 theyre hardish to hit

You also dont appear to be aware that simply surviving for 2 turns, which a ghoul unit of even moderate size can easily accomplish, is enough for your hammer unit to be a) flanked by something that will eat it (black knights, etc) or ) bypassed while the rest of your army is destroyed.

Welcome to Vampire School.
Ghouls are T4 not T3.
Ghouls are S3 not S4.
Only 1 unit at most, gets WS7/6, not the whole wall.
Multiple units in combat is risky for vampires, if you lose, all units crumble.

-Matt

I prefer the TK way of Resurrection, I bring back 4 of my tomb guard, and they now have an extra attack each, I bring back 3 more and their killing blow works on a 5+ not just a 6, then I use their banner, bring back 5 of them and they are now full strength with 2 attaks and a killing blow that works on a 5+, enjoy that.

DukeBadham wrote:I prefer the TK way of Resurrection, I bring back 4 of my tomb guard, and they now have an extra attack each, I bring back 3 more and their killing blow works on a 5+ not just a 6, then I use their banner, bring back 5 of them and they are now full strength with 2 attaks and a killing blow that works on a 5+, enjoy that.

Yeah, that's neat.
When I get 3 spells off, I get 3D6 more grave guard, who always strike first and re-roll misses, and your whole unit was just wounded on a 6+ with no save, that remains in play and get's +1 to wound each magic phase. Once the whole grave guard unit is healed, I can spend leftover healing on other units within 18".

-Matt

The Undead Unstable ability is a good thing and a bad thing at the same time.

its good to be unbreakable when you only lose combat by 2 or 3. "o look, I lose 3 skeletons. I'll just raise them back"


it is a horrible thing when you lose by 15 or something like that.

Thats why Undead need to focus on not losing combat by huge portions. they should be built to cause enough damage in combat so they don't lose more to Crumble then they can raise back up. they win by grinding their opponent down.

so the basic tactic is to lose, but not by too much. you then slowly cause enough casualities to where eventually your opponent breaks. its all about the grind.

There's no way to build skeletons or zombies which prevents them not losing combat by huge amounts and disintegrating into dust.

They're overpriced for their stats. Compare them to any skaven infantry and the skaven infantry are much harder to get off the board.

If you want to count hundreds of points of vampire magic into your justification why they aren't complete shyte, then average the cost of the vampire mage in as well and they're STILL a very weak unit.

Ghouls might be okay though. 2 poisoned attacks each with the better toughness, weapon skill and initiative maybe makes them worth resurrecting. Skeletons and zombies are jokes.

So we are specifically talking VC here.

In which case its best to focus on GG and Ghouls. Maybe have small blocks of cheap skeletons as speed bumps. same with summoned zombies.

TheBloodGod wrote:There's no way to build skeletons or zombies which prevents them not losing combat by huge amounts and disintegrating into dust.

20 Skeletons, 5 Cairn Wraiths (Heroes). I've had very good luck with it. And before you comment on the amount of points, its only 490 pts for the unit with characters. Very reasonable for the damage it puts out. Yes, Daemons would be a problem for the unit, but it still creates some shenanigans due to attack allocation.

Its pretty funny that a 200+ pt undead monster will kill maybe 2-3 guys, lose combat due to ranks, banners, etc then automatically die to a cheap 200 pt infantry block due to unstable rule though.