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Howdy Everyone!

Say I have a unit of storm vermin pushing a bell with a gray seer and they are charged by a unit of DE warriors. Whatever models that are b2b with the bell can attack the gray seer correct? Is there anyway for the grey seer to climb to the top of the bell and not participate in combat without a challenge? From what I gather, verminous valor can only be used if a challenged was issued. Does this mean I cannot protect my grey seer in close combat as long as the enemy does not declare a challenge?

Verminous Valour is only useable through the declining of a challenge.

They Grey Seer can only scamper to the top of the bell should a challenge be issued and he declines.

In other words, your assumptions are correct.

Seems silly that I can only prevent my grey seer from getting murdered in combat if the enemy throws nasty words at him

I dont understand the point of verminous valour.

Skaven are supposed to be cowards, so they should be able to run to the rear at all times.

As it is you can simply charge a unit with a skaven character, not issue a challenge, and then single the character out and kill him that way. Just like every other army.

Some armies (WoC mainly) are forced to issue challenges if they can, so there's that at least.

Overall I agree that Verminous Valour is sort of pointless though. Frankly, I feel like challenges themselves are somewhat under utilized though. You're almost always better off just throwing attacks their way instead of actually challenging.

well, you don't want to waste attacks on Overkill when you're not in a challenge.

I dont really issue challenges because they are really easy to side step.

One of three things happen :

-The character runs to the back where you cant hit him(usually a mage)

-A champion accepts, and your attacks are wasted on him

-If the character accepts, he can probably kill your champion or character whom is issueing the challenge

Nobody runs naked BSBs and then go "oooh i will accept this challenge!".

You do realise YOU choose which character goes to the back (usually) and so it doesnt have to be the mage?

I think challenges are more of a defensive thing.
You're not going to whack mages very often, but you are going to limit who gets to fight your character.

My vampire lord pretty much challenges all the time.
WS7 T5 2+ armor, 4+ ward. I'll murder a unit champ, but I'd rather have 1 kill worth 3, than 3 kills and the option for tons of attacks coming back at me.

-Matt

Yeah, Verminous Valor isn't...very good at all. Still, allowing Skaven characters to sit in the back rank now and forever was too far in the other direction.

At least we still get to keep our characters' Ld back there.

It is silly.

I got into a big arguement on whether or not Verminous Valor or Wulfrik's super-challenge takes precedence.

The TO finally ruled in favor of Wulfrik because Verminous Valor is a "you may" rule and Wulfriks is a definate "you must" rule.

Challenges, oh how I love them, this is why:
Bretonnian Lord
Bretonnian Warhorse
Gromril great helm
Birth-sword of Carcassonne
Virtue of Confidence
Dragonbane gem

Total: 226
I use my 1+ re-roll save and ward save to survive, and my 4 attacks at WS6 with re-rolls to hit, my S5 with re-rolls to wound and he has to re-roll Armour saves. Plus against the lore of metal or fire I get a 2+ ward save.