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A DE IC with Power from Pain joins another unit with Power from Pain (let's say wyches). In combat, the DE IC (who has init 7) kills an enemy IC before any other attacks in the assault are resolved, resulting in the gain of a Pain Token. For the duration of that assault phase, do the Wyches (who otherwise have no PfP counter) gain FNP?

Yes. The entire unit shares pain tokens. Only when the IC breaks off to join another unit (or just be by himself) do you divide pain tokens amongst units.

Even when the IC is treated as a different unit?

Has he joined the wyches in the movement phase? Then he is in the same unit. He is singled out as a separate unit in CC only for directed combat attacks. The pain token will still affect him and his squad as long as they are a single unit.

To the point - do the archon and wyches take separate LD checks if they lose a round of combat? (hint: no.) They are a single unit if they joined up in the movement phase.

You treat him as a separate unit only for resolving attacks.

Another question; Would the wyches who assaulted with the IC get Furious Charge if his pain token for killing that IC pt the unit at 2 tokens ?

Alkasyn wrote:Another question; Would the wyches who assaulted with the IC get Furious Charge if his pain token for killing that IC pt the unit at 2 tokens ?

Yes ... they have two tokens and it is the turn they charged ... this might cause problems if they are only one Initiative lower then IC as their turn to strike would have gone.

I think something is being missed here.

The DE IC kills an enemy IC at Ini 7. As some of you pointed out, the DE IC is part of the Wych unit, except for allocation of close combat attacks.

So if the enemy IC dies at Ini 7, the pain token would not be earned yet because the unit the IC was with is still alive.

As someone else pointed out, if the enemy IC was the only one to die, with no DE deaths, the enemy unit would still have to take a morale check.

If the enemy IC was not attached to the enemy unit and the DE player multi-assaulted with the DE IC atacking the enemy IC at Ini 7, when he killed him at that Ini, he has destroyed a non-vehicle unit and would get the additional pain token that would then apply to the Wyches at their Ini.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I think something is being missed here.

The DE IC kills an enemy IC at Ini 7. As some of you pointed out, the DE IC is part of the Wych unit, except for allocation of close combat attacks.

So if the enemy IC dies at Ini 7, the pain token would not be earned yet because the unit the IC was with is still alive.

As someone else pointed out, if the enemy IC was the only one to die, with no DE deaths, the enemy unit would still have to take a morale check.

If the enemy IC was not attached to the enemy unit and the DE player multi-assaulted with the DE IC atacking the enemy IC at Ini 7, when he killed him at that Ini, he has destroyed a non-vehicle unit and would get the additional pain token that would then apply to the Wyches at their Ini.

good point ... As per the FAQ IC that are part of a unit do not give up a pain token if they are killed. So unless you charge and kill an IC on his own (can happen) you would not get a pain token. That said if you do manage to wipe out a unit, you would get a pain token that would then take affect from that point onwards.

Tri wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I think something is being missed here.

The DE IC kills an enemy IC at Ini 7. As some of you pointed out, the DE IC is part of the Wych unit, except for allocation of close combat attacks.

So if the enemy IC dies at Ini 7, the pain token would not be earned yet because the unit the IC was with is still alive.

As someone else pointed out, if the enemy IC was the only one to die, with no DE deaths, the enemy unit would still have to take a morale check.

If the enemy IC was not attached to the enemy unit and the DE player multi-assaulted with the DE IC atacking the enemy IC at Ini 7, when he killed him at that Ini, he has destroyed a non-vehicle unit and would get the additional pain token that would then apply to the Wyches at their Ini.

good point ... As per the FAQ IC that are part of a unit do not give up a pain token if they are killed. So unless you charge and kill an IC on his own (can happen) you would not get a pain token. That said if you do manage to wipe out a unit, you would get a pain token that would then take affect from that point onwards.

Yes, which could lead to some very interesting multi-assault tactics based on generating pain tokens at a higher initiative that then massively pump up the unit at a lower initiative against another unit in said multi-assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to point out in the original and follow up question, the enemy IC cannot have been joined to any unit to grant a pain token to the DE IC.

I was unaware of the FAQ stating that IC's in units did NOT give pain tokens when killed from inside their joined squad. Thanks for the heads-up.

tetrisphreak wrote:I was unaware of the FAQ stating that IC's in units did NOT give pain tokens when killed from inside their joined squad. Thanks for the heads-up.

?

Dark Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do you gain a pain token for each independent
character you kill, even if he is in a unit? (p25)
A: Yes, as long as he still counts as an independent
character.

Tri wrote: good point ... As per the FAQ IC that are part of a unit do not give up a pain token if they are killed. So unless you charge and kill an IC on his own (can happen) you would not get a pain token. That said if you do manage to wipe out a unit, you would get a pain token that would then take affect from that point onwards.

This quote is what threw me off. The opposite is true.

So then another question arises, the answer hinted at about 3 posts ago - Would the hypothetical wyches gain FC (assuming they had a pain token already for FNP) and lose their ability to attack since I7 had already occurred?

tetrisphreak wrote:

Tri wrote: good point ... As per the FAQ IC that are part of a unit do not give up a pain token if they are killed. So unless you charge and kill an IC on his own (can happen) you would not get a pain token. That said if you do manage to wipe out a unit, you would get a pain token that would then take affect from that point onwards.

This quote is what threw me off. The opposite is true.

So then another question arises, the answer hinted at about 3 posts ago - Would the hypothetical wyches gain FC (assuming they had a pain token already for FNP) and lose their ability to attack since I7 had already occurred?

Oddly enough, it sounds like they would lose their attacks, since the initiative step has already passed. So, to avoid it, throw all the IC's attacks into the unit if you can, not the enemy IC.

How does furious assault read? They gained it after they assaulted, but before they swung. Im thinking about the ork Waaagh ruling that units which ran before the waaagh was called dont get to assault, despite getting fleet before the assault phase started.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Tri wrote: good point ... As per the FAQ IC that are part of a unit do not give up a pain token if they are killed. So unless you charge and kill an IC on his own (can happen) you would not get a pain token. That said if you do manage to wipe out a unit, you would get a pain token that would then take affect from that point onwards.

This quote is what threw me off. The opposite is true.

So then another question arises, the answer hinted at about 3 posts ago - Would the hypothetical wyches gain FC (assuming they had a pain token already for FNP) and lose their ability to attack since I7 had already occurred?

Sorry gone back and checked again ... managed to read the IC and Non-IC rules together ... That or my other computer has a cached version of FAQ.

Interesting answers. I think we just broke the game

The witches wouldn't get Furious Charge.It was FAQ'd,but it waas the Tyrant Guard's Berserk Rampage special Rule.

I don't remermber the exact wording but it something like this

Q:If a Hive Tyrant has joined a unit of TG,and is killed in an assault before they get to strike,do they gain the benefits of FC?
A:No,as they did not have it at the time assault moves were made.


I think the same applies here.

Deadshot wrote:The witches wouldn't get Furious Charge.It was FAQ'd,but it waas the Tyrant Guard's Berserk Rampage special Rule.

I don't remermber the exact wording but it something like this

Q:If a Hive Tyrant has joined a unit of TG,and is killed in an assault before they get to strike,do they gain the benefits of FC?
A:No,as they did not have it at the time assault moves were made.


I think the same applies here.

Probably not, Why?

Because the Nids Faq is the opposite of any other armies
They got hit so hard I sold 1500+ Points of em

Deadshot wrote:The witches wouldn't get Furious Charge.It was FAQ'd,but it waas the Tyrant Guard's Berserk Rampage special Rule.

I don't remermber the exact wording but it something like this

Q:If a Hive Tyrant has joined a unit of TG,and is killed in an assault before they get to strike,do they gain the benefits of FC?
A:No,as they did not have it at the time assault moves were made.


I think the same applies here.

I don't think that a different book faq can be applied to the DE book. GW have contradicted themselves before, like with the Lash Whip Ini reduction. IT shows a general line of reasoning, however, that should indeed be taken into consideration.

Alkasyn wrote:

Deadshot wrote:The witches wouldn't get Furious Charge.It was FAQ'd,but it waas the Tyrant Guard's Berserk Rampage special Rule.

I don't remermber the exact wording but it something like this

Q:If a Hive Tyrant has joined a unit of TG,and is killed in an assault before they get to strike,do they gain the benefits of FC?
A:No,as they did not have it at the time assault moves were made.


I think the same applies here.

I don't think that a different book faq can be applied to the DE book. GW have contradicted themselves before, like with the Lash Whip Ini reduction. IT shows a general line of reasoning, however, that should indeed be taken into consideration.

Unfortunately the BA FAQ takes the complete opposite stance regarding Blood Chalices.

Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks.

Which points toward them gaining the benefits of the pain token immediatetly. Hooray for consistency.

In that case,why do GW hate the nids?I know why.In Battle for Macragge the Ultrasmurfs got their butts handed to them on silver platters by the Swarmlord,and they are pissed.

Combat ensues...

Archon and Wyches fight Captain and marines.

Archon and wyches already have a pain token.

Archon kills the captain. Archon and Wyches gain a pain token, making it two tokens.

I don't see what the issue is here regarding this.



As for the other issue...

Wyches now gain Furious Charge. Wyches didn't have furious charge when they assaulted, which can be seen as the trigger to turn on furious charge. As far as I am concerned, wyches don't gain the beenfits of furious charge this turn. If you do want to give wyches furious charge, then you simply resolve their attacks normally anyway. I don't see how you are going to tell me my attacks magically vanish into the void, lol.

Either I can use it, or not, EITHER way is fine by me, but making my attacks magically vanish is pretty absurd.

BuFFo wrote:Combat ensues...

Archon and Wyches fight Captain and marines.

Archon and wyches already have a pain token.

Archon kills the captain. Archon and Wyches gain a pain token, making it two tokens.

I don't see what the issue is here regarding this.

Everything is good to the third sentence. You say that the Archon and the Wyches gain a pain token.

But a Dark Eldar unit gains a pain token when it destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit.

Now look at the main rules page 49, independent characters & assaults.
Here it says when you resolve the attacks, "...independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit...)

And further, "Once all attacks have been resolved, these character are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined..."

Codex Dark Eldar on page 25 under Power from Pain says that a unit immediately gains a pain token when it destroys and enemy unit and under Sharing the Pain says if a unit is joined by one or more characters with pain tokens they are pooled.

So we have a combat going on, an Archon together with a unit of Wyches. They have one pain token. They all have feel no pain.

The Archon (at I7) attacks and kills an enemy IC. The Archon immediately gains a pain token. Since we are still resolving the combat, the Archon is a single-model unit and has gained the pain token. He would now have 2 tokens but the Wyches still have only one at this point because the combat has not been completed.

The wyches now attack and fail to kill all of the enemy models. The enemy models now attack. Combat has now been resolved, the assault results are determined, and the Archon is once again joined to the Wyches (as far as combat resolution is concerned, he obviously never "left" the unit of wyches).

Now the Wyches and the Archon together have 2 pain tokens and would gain furious charge in subsequent combats provided they stay joined.

The Archon/Ic only counts as a seperate unit for him attacking/recieving attacks.He is still very much the same unit.So both the wyches and the Archon get a pain token.

Also TW, if it were true that they were separare in all instances, you'd still have to randomly determine which unit got the Pain Token according to the rules. It doesn't automatically go to the one that made the killing blow.

Doesn't matter as Deadshot pointed out that they are still the same unit. If ICs magically stop being joined to a unit during the assault phase, then Chaplains, Librarians with assault powers that effect "their unit", and Logan would lose a lot of power and purpose.

Deadshot wrote:In that case,why do GW hate the nids?I know why.In Battle for Macragge the Ultrasmurfs got their butts handed to them on silver platters by the Swarmlord,and they are pissed.

Actually, the BA ruling hurts them just as much as the Tyranid ruling.

1) You can't keep the Priest back out of the combat in a vehicle, unless you know you're still going to be within 6".
2) If you assault a unit that is I 6+, and the Priest dies, you lose your bonuses.