Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, been going thru this with a friend. In the first Ard Boyz tournament, my first two opponents weren't really wysiwyg. They both had converted minis, non-GW models, and really on one opponent I really couldn't tell what was what in his army. It never really cause too many problems except in CC, I qualified... I went to second qualifier with a friend the next day and played again just having fun, but it wasn't fun because everything I faced looked like a mix of maniac, reaper, and some other non-GW models got tossed into a blender with glue and presented as an army.

I mention this to my friend that I hoped I wasn't going to see this stuff in the semi's as I took pride to build my entire army with the correct models, and converted up the correct weapons. He of course is kind of WAAC player, but he never gets out of line with the rules, just always brings solid competitive list and takes pride in his hobby. He called over a TO on his second opponent and got awarded a win, because the guys army wasn't WYSIWYG, non-GW models, and illegal list (guy was like 200+ points over the limit). We both qualified for the semi's and are planning to travel together and hopeful one of us will go home with a new army.

My question is...at what point do you say "hey, these don't look anything like what they are suppose to represent..." and call a TO over to make a decision?

Best example was an opponent converting dwarves to be IG guys (squats I know), but they didn't have weapons...some had spears "count as" lasguns, thunderers were meltas, and crossbow guys I think were plasmaguns. One model had a musician modeled to be a Flamer...it just got out of hand. I don't have a problem with converting weapons and making use of other GW models to count as, if they look close, heck I converted my beastmasters out of Hellions and Termagant heads...as they end up looking very close to them. However there comes a point where you look at someone's army and have to say....way over converted, nothing looks like it should, or just slap them on the head and ask what where they thinking.

I really don't want to be TFG, but I am going to have to drive 5 hours to the semi's, and I really don't like the idea of having to deal with this again.

That isn't you being TFG, that's a really poor TO.

If the majority of the model isn't GW then it's not going to go down well the further in the tournament that these players progress. If it's 5 hours from the store, you'd be doing them a favour by getting them DQ'd as soon as possible!

Nothing wrong with using dwarves as squats but you would then have to get the correct weapons. Were they on square bases too? Haha.

Well technically this should have been checked by TO at the start of the day.

If the competition rules state WYSIWYG you are completely within your rights to ask your opponent to use correct models and if not get TO.

If you are converting you need to help your opponent out and give some picture reference so they ... A) can look down and check b) you don't mistakenly use something they haven't got.

I'm a firm supporter of WYSIWYG, you can use brettonians to proxy space marines, but they better have a melta on them, or I'm considering them to have a bolter, using cold ones as fiends of slaanesh is ok, same with dryads, because rending claws are subjective, but, a motherfeething melta better be on your brettonian, or a havoc on your chaos warrior, or, I'm calling a TO. I had to play a guy using a mr potato head as a drop pod because he said it had whirlwind launcher, but it didn't.

I'm fine with conversions, even from non-GW models, as long as they're appropriate for whatever they're supposed to represent.

Converting Dwarfs into Squats is fine, to me - the LoS issues they might present works both ways. Using spears as lasguns and crossbows as plasmaguns is not cool, though (pun not actually intended).

I convert the heck out of my armies but there is a line. All my sluggas are pistol sized, shootas are all bigger than sluggas, big shootas more so. A trukk looks like a trukk even if it is a rhino or devilfish, but a battlewagon is always bigger. The only limit I don't care about is choppas; they are allowed to be wacky and stupid looking.

Helmets turn into Santa hats and squigs into snowmen. Don't judge.

-cgmckenzie

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:
Best example was an opponent converting dwarves to be IG guys (squats I know), but they didn't have weapons...some had spears "count as" lasguns, thunderers were meltas, and crossbow guys I think were plasmaguns. One model had a musician modeled to be a Flamer...it just got out of hand. I don't have a problem with converting weapons and making use of other GW models to count as, if they look close, heck I converted my beastmasters out of Hellions and Termagant heads...as they end up looking very close to them. However there comes a point where you look at someone's army and have to say....way over converted, nothing looks like it should, or just slap them on the head and ask what where they thinking.

As long as the conversions were consistant: all spears were lasguns, all the crossbows were plamsa, etc. and the player didn't mind being asked a millionth time what the various models had, I'm okay with the conversions. I enjoy doing conversions but I make sure I combine the WYSIWYG and "count as" to reduce confusion. I actually prefer totally outlandish conversions to near or "almost" since it's easier for me to pick out the outlandish then the "almost".

I have a LaD army I converted based on the Army of Darkness movie. I made the flamers out of head-flaming skeletons spitting fire from a liquor bottle. Definitely didn't look like a flame thrower but the point was made: these models are the flame throwers throughout my army.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I have a LaD army I converted based on the Army of Darkness movie. I made the flamers out of head-flaming skeletons spitting fire from a liquor bottle. Definitely didn't look like a flame thrower but the point was made: these models are the flame throwers throughout my army.

This is a good example. Flamers are something different which is flame related. A WHFB musician - not flame related. Archers for lasguns? Maybe. Spears? No way.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:Okay, been going thru this with a friend. In the first Ard Boyz tournament, my first two opponents weren't really wysiwyg. They both had converted minis, non-GW models, and really on one opponent I really couldn't tell what was what in his army.

What exactly did you mean by this? Did you mean that your opponent had conversions that were insufficiently representing the models that they were supposed to be? Or were you instead citing any conversion at all as a WYSIWYG violation?

I have no problem with non-GW models, or with models that are heavily converted. But, they need to obey three rules (this is my personal threshold, not an official 40k rule):

1) They have to look cool. Your Rhino built from 5 pieces of cardboard taped together doesn't count, even if it is the right profile.

2) They have to be easily identifiable, or at least make enough sense that I can remember it if you explain it to me once. Crossbows are bolters and green crossbows are plasma guns is fine. Swords are plasma pistols and spears are heavy bolters is not.

3) You are allowed one army wide switch. All missile launchers are lascannons is fine. These 3 missile launchers are lascannons and the rest are normal is not.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:
Best example was an opponent converting dwarves to be IG guys (squats I know), but they didn't have weapons...some had spears "count as" lasguns, thunderers were meltas, and crossbow guys I think were plasmaguns. One model had a musician modeled to be a Flamer...it just got out of hand. I don't have a problem with converting weapons and making use of other GW models to count as, if they look close, heck I converted my beastmasters out of Hellions and Termagant heads...as they end up looking very close to them. However there comes a point where you look at someone's army and have to say....way over converted, nothing looks like it should, or just slap them on the head and ask what where they thinking.

I really don't want to be TFG, but I am going to have to drive 5 hours to the semi's, and I really don't like the idea of having to deal with this again.

At the semi and final rounds that I run in Philadelphia, I enforce WYWIWYG pretty harshly. Your experience is the reason why. Many players don't want to be the guy flagging down a ref and pointing out what their opponent has on the board that is illegal. I try to get around and look at all the armies as we get started, and encourage people to call me over and talk to me. I try to warn every player coming that we will be enforcing WYSIWYG, even if they didn't further down the chain.

Some players spend the money and time to correctly model their army. It's not right to then let someone who didn't do the work slide by.

Your example of the dwarf/squat/IG things shouldn't have been allowed to play. "All my crossbows are plasmaguns" isn't going to fly. I can imagine that someone, somewhere has done a very cool WFB dwarfs to Squats conversion. This doesn't sound like it at all. I'd have DQ'd the army. (possibly might have loaned the guy models to play with, might not, depends on how much time I have, and his attitude.)

I'm going to have to chime in and say ther are really two topics people are discussing here, there is WYSIWYG and there is Proxies.

WYSIWYG: means just that if your opponent says this guy has a melta gun and he's pointing at a Empire crossbowman, sorry "I see a crossbow"

The hazzy part is conversions and these will ultimately be up to your judges, whether a conversion is acceptable, Skeletons breathing fire as a flamer sure i can "see that" but that's me.
Empire Pistoleers as IG guardsmen? It better have some hi-tech doohickies or such glued on that flintlock to make it work in the future. If not you fall into.......


Proxies: which is when you state something like "All the space marines in my IG army are really vets with carapace armor" while fine in casual play, not so much in 'ard boys this year. because "I see a squad of space marines" and those aren't allowed in an IG army.


Non GW mini's: Unfortunatly GW has a very strict rule about using non GW models.....(They reallllllly like their money) so yeah no reaper mini's in a GW tourny
for conversions I beleave the standard accepted percentage is 50% of the model has to be GW.

So what is allowed? in Casual play it's just between you and your opponent. however in 'Ard Boys this year, it's WYSIWYG and that means it better look like what your claiming it is.....and yes we all know the difference between a melta and plasma gun.

Combi weapons is the topic that I keep getting asked about as players sign up for regionals.

Yes, if you want your models to be able to shoot a combi melta, then there better be something on the model to easily show your opponent that you have a combi melta.

WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

That depends on what kind of game you're playing. If its a friendly/casual game, I doubt it will matter much. Now if its 'Ard Boyz or another tournament, it gets a little more difficult.

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

No, marines do have grenades, even if only 3 or 4 have them modeled on, we can assume they have enough to account for everyone, as for the combat blades that could account for their 1A they have. It's not perplexing, it'd be perplexing if they all had melta bombs strapped to them, while weilding a plasma gun with a power sword strapped on their back and calling them standard bolter marines

Brother_Khiros wrote:

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

That depends on what kind of game you're playing. If its a friendly/casual game, I doubt it will matter much. Now if its 'Ard Boyz or another tournament, it gets a little more difficult.

I'm actually sort of nervous now. I am very new to the game, and am assembling an army entirely from second hand models. Would you (or anyone else, for that matter) mind taking a look at my gallery images and let me know if they would pass muster? (Or don't; this isn't intended to be a shameless self-promotion.)

Would someone in a competitive setting really call me for not having grenades or pistols displayed on my marines?

While I understand that 13-year-olds are not the most adept at assembly and collecting and such, my thrid round experience was pretty bad. Kid had no codex, a 50-year-old Stanley folding ruler with hinges (an extra 1/2 inch measurement), and about half way through the neverending calls for the save on a genestealer or the swarmlord, I noticed one of his minis was the Clawfoot Rider from D&D minis... Since two rounds had transpired with no one wanting to be TFG, or noticing, I said nothing. But it was sad, nonetheless, should I have narc-ed the little bastard out and gotten the thankless win, probably forever turning him off to the hobby? I tried to tell him he needed to have all his stuff, but he kept telling me this was all the stuff he had and he left his codex at home...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:While I understand that 13-year-olds are not the most adept at assembly and collecting and such, my thrid round experience was pretty bad. Kid had no codex, a 50-year-old Stanley folding ruler with hinges (an extra 1/2 inch measurement), and about half way through the neverending calls for the save on a genestealer or the swarmlord, I noticed one of his minis was the Clawfoot Rider from D&D minis... Since two rounds had transpired with no one wanting to be TFG, or noticing, I said nothing. But it was sad, nonetheless, should I have narc-ed the little bastard out and gotten the thankless win, probably forever turning him off to the hobby? I tried to tell him he needed to have all his stuff, but he kept telling me this was all the stuff he had and he left his codex at home...

... sorry but I would have ... no codex in a tournament? GET OUT!

This thread makes me feel bad about playing, since I'm leniant to the extent of using empty bases as gaunts when you run out of them from using tervigons.

remilia_scarlet wrote:This thread makes me feel bad about playing, since I'm leniant to the extent of using empty bases as gaunts when you run out of them from using tervigons.

It specifically says in the Tervigon entry that if you do not have the extra gaunt models ,then the excess count as destroyed. Friendly game I might let you have them, tournament wise there is no way I would let anyone do that. When I play Fantasy I have over 100 extra zombies for my VC just for the same reason. I would not expect my opponent to let me use extra bases.

The biggest thing I'm seeing here is that the whole WYSIWYG rule is being discussed about a tournament setting. I would feel bad about it, but I would narc someone out about trying to pass off something not strictly WYSIWYG in a major tourny.

Everything else is fine by me. Hell, in the last tourny my local store did, I didn't have enough guardsmen with meltas, so I used hormagaunts. My opponents asked why I was fielding nids with IG, and I simply told them that these were special "melta nids" with "melta claws" that were "domesticated". The actual explanation was a bit more drawn out, but people generally enjoy playing with me so noone really cared. Besides it was pretty easy to know what model on my side was a guardsmen with a lasgun and what wasn't.

But yeah, in a major tourny I would never pull something like that. It's shameful enough doing it at local tournies.

I ran into the same issue. I was a nice guy but I should have called the TO over to get this GK player disqualified.

"What you see is what you get" can be used for stuff like crossbows for melta guns verse long bows for las guns. In the wide Galaxy whats to stop one planet of humans from finding a way to make melta bomb crossbow bolts and explosivel tipped arrows. But yes being consistent in the army if you want to do this is essential. From what I see WYSIWYG means no calling a guy without armor as being in space marine armor some how.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also GW only in hard boy so if he was using NON gw stuff he was cheating and needed to be removed.

Brother_Khiros wrote:

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

That depends on what kind of game you're playing. If its a friendly/casual game, I doubt it will matter much. Now if its 'Ard Boyz or another tournament, it gets a little more difficult.

No, it's actually pretty simple. You can model anything you want on rank and file troops, and WYSIWIG is only required for upgrades. i.e you do not have to model grenades and bolters on all of your tacticals because they have them in the codex entry as standard. Similarly for the combat blades - you treat them as bling, visual enhancement and not equipment. WYSIWIG is required for troops carrying special/heavy weapons, like melta, plasma or heavy bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raatcharch wrote:

Brother_Khiros wrote:

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

That depends on what kind of game you're playing. If its a friendly/casual game, I doubt it will matter much. Now if its 'Ard Boyz or another tournament, it gets a little more difficult.

I'm actually sort of nervous now. I am very new to the game, and am assembling an army entirely from second hand models. Would you (or anyone else, for that matter) mind taking a look at my gallery images and let me know if they would pass muster? (Or don't; this isn't intended to be a shameless self-promotion.)

Would someone in a competitive setting really call me for not having grenades or pistols displayed on my marines?

Your guys are a good bunch and you are a decent painter for a newbie. Well done.

Agreed, those guys make me jealous, but then i'm not what you'd call much of a painter.That's good work.

In games for fun, i don't care if the coke bottle is a carnifex, just as long as it stays one

In tournaments, it is really only weapons that i like to see WYSIWYG on, so i can look quick and know what i an dealing with without alerting my opponents to my plans

I've played against a lot of proxied armies, and I love converting my own models. But if some dude walked up with a bunch of guys with spears and shields counting as lasguns or what have you, I'd be pretty pissed. I wouldn't call over a TO over it, but I'd certainly be less than enthused about the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raatcharch wrote:WYSIWYG kind of confounds me. Very few of my Space Marines (most of them from box sets through the ages) actually have all of the war gear that they have by default via the Codex equipped. Most are missing bolt pistols, about half have grenades showing. Ever more perplexing, many of them have combat blades attached to their hips, which via the codex, they can't actually have. Does this mean that all of my vanilla Space Marines are illegal?

Probably. Screwy, ain't it?