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Game came to halt last night.
Archmage leading 30 seaguard hit ghouls with a vampire lord in the flank, with the arch mage in base to base with the vampire lord.
Vampire lord was armed with sword of anti-heroes, gaining +1 S and +1 A for each enemy in base to base.

At Always strikes first, the high elves dump all their attacks on rank and file.
(It's not clear if arch mage contributed a S3 attack or not; though for 2 rounds of combat against a varghulf, I'm pretty sure the mage was fighting).

At init 7, I say the vampire lord has 5 S6 attacks, and then roll to hit the arch mage. At this point, the high elf player reveals the talisman, says the magic sword doesn't work and his 4 attacks are lost due to the Faloriaths Robes.
My opponent refuses to discuss it, and threatens to quit. I don't mind being wrong, but if you refuse to discuss and threaten to quite, I'm not going to stick around. I quit.
My reading on the Talisman, is that as soon as your in base to base it shuts off magic weapons.
If that is true, the Vampire Lord would have known he didn't have 5 attacks, and would have allocated 4 (instead of 5) to rank and file.

The Talisman does not work like the cursed book where it doesn't take place until you try to hit. Because it works any time in base to base, my opponent should have informed me of the loss of attack. When my opponent neglected to inform me of his item functioning, it seemed reasonable to me to allow re-allocation and rolls of 4 attacks, instead of 5.

How would you play this?
What would you do if the vampire lord had an ASF sword, my other frequent choice for a weapon?


For item disclosure, my vampire lord was earlier in melee with a chariot, I said he's got a magic sword, but against a chariot it has no special rules. In a prior game, I informed my opponent of my killing blow weapon, once I attacked with the hero, even though you can't killing blow a great eagle.
Maybe I'm just used to more openness magic gear, and I'm used to revealing it as soon as it gets used in any way.

-Matt

The magic item must be revealed as soon as it has an effect; as soon as he was in base your sword was nullified so it should have been declared.

I agree with Nosferatu, you should've been allowed to redirect 4 S.5 attacks at the unit.
I think the same would apply in regards to the ASF sword; the Talisman of Saphery takes effect as soon as you are in base to base. As in before anybody strikes.
Out of curiosity, would this mage-build have protected the wizard, from the Grave Guards Wight Blades? Or does it have to be a magic weapon from a magic item list?

snapsepaven wrote:I agree with Nosferatu, you should've been allowed to redirect 4 S.5 attacks at the unit.
I think the same would apply in regards to the ASF sword; the Talisman of Saphery takes effect as soon as you are in base to base. As in before anybody strikes.
Out of curiosity, would this mage-build have protected the wizard, from the Grave Guards Wight Blades? Or does it have to be a magic weapon from a magic item list?

Wights don't have magic weapons, they have magical attacks.
Wizard would be SOL.
White Lions killed both units of wights; but I had 3 wraith heroes, banshee, and a summoned spirit hose on the table.
Not only that, but the ghouls would have been able to thin down the seaguard; and the seaguard were about to get hit with a curse of years, wounding on a 4+.

The elf army was mostly a gunline, and I had weathered the fire and made it into melee.
The white lions where the last issue; but they were in combat with a wraith and banshee who were in a ghoul unit that was down to 2 ghouls. I had 2 more wraiths heroes who were about to flank charge.

It was pretty much rapped up at that point.
How the vampire lord played out didn't really matter that much; I'm just irritated when people take the I'm not going to listen, play it my way or I'll quit; especially at 1:30AM.

-Matt

Aaah you're right. Sorry I'm a bit tired and the name 'Wight Blades' confused me.

Yeah it sucks the fun out of the game. Luckily people are pretty casual where I play; usually a d6 roll solves our disputes. I like winning but I rather have a fun game.

HawaiiMatt wrote:My opponent refuses to discuss it, and threatens to quit. I don't mind being wrong, but if you refuse to discuss and threaten to quite, I'm not going to stick around. I quit.

The phase, "You can't fire me because I quit" comes to mind....

Anyway, your opponent should have told you about the talisman at the start of the combat and you would have been able to direct your attacks against the unit if you wished. However, he did not have to tell you about Faloriaths Robes until you directed attacks at him, so those attacks would still have been lost if you direct attacks against the wizard(although if your opponent tells you his wizard has the Talisman, then it is pretty safe to assume he has the Robes too ).

Do people regularly hide what their guys are equipt with? I normally just give the information out as I deploy. Then in combat I simply remind them what I have...

Stoupe wrote:Do people regularly hide what their guys are equipt with? I normally just give the information out as I deploy. Then in combat I simply remind them what I have...

Everyone I play with keeps Magic Items and hidden things(assassins, Fanatics, etc) secret. It's pretty cool.

I live on the big island, where we have no local stores, so most of my games now are online via http://www.universalbattle.com/

Most of the games have been cool; and everything here went fine until the talisman issue.
I just don't get the "I'm not even going to talk about it mindset".

-Matt

Stoupe, my gaming group also tends to share information before the battle begins as well. We know thats not how it normally goes, but we've always done it that way. I wouldn't mind trying out the secrecy games. Either way would be cool with me.

As far as your situation goes Matt, you already know he did you wrong. I, like you, would be completely perplexed by that kind of defensive attitude. It is always a little disheartening to hear stories like this. I am sure no one wants the hobby to have these nobs, but its the sad reality.

I figured the consensus would get that answer, but the question is, anyone have a page reference?

I know the rules have something about when items are revealed, but I can't seem to find it.

-Matt

My take on this is that you really don't need a page referance. Every RT I've been to requires that you have to provide a copy of your list to your opponent. Matt, if your opponent plays seriously he would not be able to get away with this tactic simply becuase your opponent always has access to your list. Since most sanctioned events require this, I personally expect to have access to my opponents list, even in freindly play. I organize a local group and this mindset I feel has created a more open and freindly gameplay environment, especially since we have newer and younger players that may not be "read up" on the latest army books. To date, I have yet to have a "I quit" moment happen at the shop.

Actually every fantasy tournament Ive ever been to requires the opposite - you hand your list over at the end, but not before.

You have to run through all mundane equipment, whether there is FC or not, but magic items ARE kept secret until first used.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually every fantasy tournament Ive ever been to requires the opposite - you hand your list over at the end, but not before.
You have to run through all mundane equipment, whether there is FC or not, but magic items ARE kept secret until first used.

Again, looking for page references.

-Matt

The book clearly states it's a matter of taste, so you must agree on it with your opponent or in a tourney do what that tourney's rules state. Usually the local gaming group will have a way they're used to doing it, and since secret lists where the norm before that is more common.

I came in at the end but the consensus with the observers was that you can't re-allocate your attacks because they have already been wasted(and most of the HE players ive seen play it this way).

As for lists, i thought it was standard NOT to tell everyone what your magic items were, espeically considering the wording of spells like vaul's unmaking.

But it will be interesting to see what others think of this.

Edit : Well heres the other version of this thread : http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=36493

Except they arent wasted; as soon as they were in base the magical weapon was nullified, and you should have been told this. This is before you allocate attacks.

Question wrote:I came in at the end but the consensus with the observers was that you can't re-allocate your attacks because they have already been wasted(and most of the HE players ive seen play it this way).

As for lists, i thought it was standard NOT to tell everyone what your magic items were, espeically considering the wording of spells like vaul's unmaking.

But it will be interesting to see what others think of this.

Edit : Well heres the other version of this thread : http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=36493

Yup, mixed results. You can ambush with the robes + talisman. Don't put the arch mage in base to base, and challenge with him. Since you aren't negating magic weapons, the talisman does nothing until you move into contact for the challenge.

If I took the master rune of camo on a dwarf cannon, it can't be shot at or targeted until I shoot, move, or an enemy comes within 3".
If my opponent says I fire this unit of 20 crossbows at the cannon, and I let him roll the dice, then claim all his shots are wasted I'm cheating, the targeting is prevented by the rune, so the shots can go somewhere else.
The idea that "do overs" don't happen is flawed. If I charge a fear causing unit, I can't ignore the fear simply by quickly throwing my attack dice.
My general rule is, if it's my mistake, I'm out of luck, if my opponent forgets, I'll offer him a do over. If my opponent doesn't inform me, I expect the do over.

-Matt

I agree with Nos, as soon as you hit B2B with the Mage, the Talisman of Saphery was activated and had to be declared.

If it said that any attacks against the bearer of the talisman had their effects negated, then it wouldn't come into play until attacks were allocated to him, at which point, it'd be too late until the next round of combat, but as it stands, the effect of the Talisman came into play when the Vampire Lord reached B2B, and so it must be declared at that point.

I just declare what I have at the start of the game and when they enter combat, and if my opponent asks, I tell him what they do, they usually ask and then do the same, so we both know what we all have,

Everyone I play with plays open lists with magic items. The only thing they hide are assassins or fanatics and what not. But in tournaments, even that information is known because you see the army list before the game begins, at least at all of the local tournaments I go to and 'Ard Boyz.