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I have a couple questions about Berzerkers and the Chaos Space Marine followers of Khorne.

Firstly, are all Berzerkers World Eaters? I know in the CSM codex they mention that some have joined up with the Black Legion. Would another warband like the Knights of Blood or Skulltakers have their own Berzerkers or would their berzerkers just be exiles/outcasts originally from Angron's legion?

Secondly, are all World Eaters berzerkers? Does the entire legion KILL MAIM BURN with chainaxes and chainswords from dawn until dusk, or do some of them have enough of a grip on reality to realize that maybe a bolter would be a better idea sometimes? Do they have any grip on tactics beyond charging headlong at the enemy and spilling blood? This segues into my third question:

Can a Khornate warband justify some shooting or would Khorne not care for their tactics?

Personally I figure that a warband devoted to Khorne would be a lot like the Blood Angels. All of them would love to get stuck in combat and come back covered in blood, but they fight back the urge and focus on tactics. The older marines who have been in the warp too long or whose brain implants are going haywire would be the berzerkers, similar to the Blood Angels death company, their only job is to charge at the enemy and kill as many of them before they finally get killed. Am I right in thinking that? Is there any backing for this in the fluff that I've missed?

Thanks!

1) No.
2) Yes.

no i believe only the black legion & world eaters have the knowledge to make a marine into a khorne beserker which involves some psycho surgery

yes the surgery drives them insanely beserk the constantly seek blood for khorne however they are surprisingly calm outside of battle

bruno.sardine wrote:Firstly, are all Berzerkers World Eaters? I know in the CSM codex they mention that some have joined up with the Black Legion. Would another warband like the Knights of Blood or Skulltakers have their own Berzerkers or would their berzerkers just be exiles/outcasts originally from Angron's legion?

The techniques are known for making new Berzerkers, so there are probably some new none World Eaters. Also, the World Eaters Legion splintered, so there are a lot of Berzerkers in different renegade chapters, legions and that sort of things. The Iron Warriors and Black Legion both make use of Khorne Berzerkers, along with some renegade Chapters like the Red Corsairs (if I remember correctly).

bruno.sardine wrote:Secondly, are all World Eaters berzerkers? Does the entire legion KILL MAIM BURN with chainaxes and chainswords from dawn until dusk, or do some of them have enough of a grip on reality to realize that maybe a bolter would be a better idea sometimes? Do they have any grip on tactics beyond charging headlong at the enemy and spilling blood? This segues into my third question:

Yep, some World Eaters, though crazy and blood thirsty, are not Khorne Berzerkers. Still crazy though.

bruno.sardine wrote:Can a Khornate warband justify some shooting or would Khorne not care for their tactics?

Khorne is happy as long as the blood flows. It seems like the only reason he prefers melee is because that's most likely to stir bloodlust, but that's just fan speculation. So, some Khorne Worshippers shoot things and such.

bruno.sardine wrote:Personally I figure that a warband devoted to Khorne would be a lot like the Blood Angels. All of them would love to get stuck in combat and come back covered in blood, but they fight back the urge and focus on tactics. The older marines who have been in the warp too long or whose brain implants are going haywire would be the berzerkers, similar to the Blood Angels death company, their only job is to charge at the enemy and kill as many of them before they finally get killed. Am I right in thinking that? Is there any backing for this in the fluff that I've missed?

The vast majority of Khorne Berzerkers, old and new, are insane and charge at the enemy in a suicidal fashion because of lobotomies, implants and hormones due to the operations performed on them. Most don't use tactics, though I'm sure a few do.

If you want info, the Chaos Space Marine Codex works. It has a whole page about Khorne Berzerkers. Also, the Lexicanum is your friend.

Khorne berzerkers, including World Eaters, do use tactics and have periods of lucidity. This is, in fact, why Kharne is called the betrayer, if you read his story.
He killed his own men because they decided to wait until it was safe to fight.
Viz. they do use tactics. Some of them. Sometimes.

Not often, they just want to be in close with the enemy no matter what is my take on them. Burn maim kill type stuff....

1) No - not only are there World Eaters berserkers in the Black Legion, but any Chaos Marine (indeed any cultist) can devote himself to the Blood God and start foaming at the mouth, biting his shield and benefiting from Furious Charge.

2) No - it's perfectly plausible within the background fluff to have 'tactical' World Eaters using bolters. Thanks to crappy rules-writing, one has to buy them an icon in order for them to have their patron god's mark, of course. When you consider that there are Khorne-worshipping titan legions, there's no real reason not to have World Eater Havocs either. After all, one would presume that in the legion there must still be some devastators left from the Heresy whose favoured way of spilling blood is with a heavy bolter.

Not all Khorne Bezerkers are World Eaters, but all World Eaters are Bezerkers.

I don't like the whole 'all World Eaters are Bezerkers' thing. How does a crazed frothing madman intent on getting close up and personal fire a Lascannon, apart from rather poorly?

Perhaps the ones with ranged weapons are initiates?

Pilau Rice wrote:but all World Eaters are Bezerkers.

Source?

English Assassin wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:but all World Eaters are Bezerkers.

Source?

Chaos Codex if I recall correctly, it's either the latest one or the previous edition.

Damn. It does actually say that in the previous codex - though conspicuously it doesn't in the latest. That's definitely a retcon, however, since the Slaves to Darkness list allows the World Eaters devastator squads (they hadn't undergone the unnecessary renamng to 'Havocs' at the time), describing them (rather nicely I think) as 'the teeth of the World Eaters'.

Of two out of date army books, I know which one I prefer - I thoroughly dislike the simplistic reduction of all the 'big four' legions to a single particular troop type.

A "true" bezerker undergoes lobotomisation and hypnotherapy to become one, but that's not to say that someone without these alterations can't go on a blood-crazed rampage.

Iirc, all the World eaters had the surgery done and thus, as a rule, tend to be close-combat orientated so they can actually see/smell/taste the blood that they're spilling.
(It's also harder to collect skulls when you're 200m away firing a lascannon.)

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
Iirc, all the World eaters had the surgery done and thus, as a rule, tend to be close-combat orientated so they can actually see/smell/taste the blood that they're spilling.
(It's also harder to collect skulls when you're 200m away firing a lascannon.)

Which is why I don't like the 'All World Eaters are Bezerkers' statement as the World Eaters would surely have some form of big guns to shoot.

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:A "true" bezerker undergoes lobotomisation and hypnotherapy to become one, but that's not to say that someone without these alterations can't go on a blood-crazed rampage.

Iirc, all the World eaters had the surgery done and thus, as a rule, tend to be close-combat orientated so they can actually see/smell/taste the blood that they're spilling.
(It's also harder to collect skulls when you're 200m away firing a lascannon.)

Whilst I will grudgingly accept what the old Chaos says (much as I feel it is unnecessarily narrowing) I would point out that we're told the World Eaters' use of psycho-surgery began before the Heresy, at which time they were still organised in the standard (whatever that really means pre-Codex Astartes) fashion, which would presumably have included devastator marines.

The more one thinks about this, the more annoying contradictions appear. By the strict letter of 'all World Eaters are berserkers' one cannot have World Eater Terminators, let alone Havocs and Raptors, but - since units of Berserkers can take a Rhino as a designated transport - there are beserker World Eaters calm enough to drive a their fellows around in a van. Or there are other traitor marines foolish enough to volunteer to be the World Eaters' designated drivers, which is an even sillier idea.

I'd agree that it doesn't seem quite right to picture a World Eater sniping with a lascannon at extreme range, on the other hand the image of a bellowing madman leading the charge with a heavy flamer or blazing away indiscriminately with a heavy bolter wouldn't be contrary to the tone of their background.

Now I realise why everybody hates the present codex.

Edit: added even sillier idea.

English Assassin wrote:

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:A "true" bezerker undergoes lobotomisation and hypnotherapy to become one, but that's not to say that someone without these alterations can't go on a blood-crazed rampage.

Iirc, all the World eaters had the surgery done and thus, as a rule, tend to be close-combat orientated so they can actually see/smell/taste the blood that they're spilling.
(It's also harder to collect skulls when you're 200m away firing a lascannon.)

Whilst I will grudgingly accept what the old Chaos says (much as I feel it is unnecessarily narrowing) I would point out that we're told the World Eaters' use of psycho-surgery began before the Heresy, at which time they were still organised in the standard (whatever that really means pre-Codex Astartes) fashion, which would presumably have included devastator marines.

The more one thinks about this, the more annoying contradictions appear. By the strict letter of 'all World Eaters are berserkers' one cannot have World Eater Terminators, let alone Havocs and Raptors, but - since units of Berserkers can take a Rhino as a designated transport - there are beserker World Eaters calm enough to drive a their fellows around in a van.

I'd agree that it doesn't seem quite right to picture a World Eater sniping with a lascannon at extreme range, on the other hand the image of a bellowing madman leading the charge with a heavy flamer or blazing away indiscriminately with a heavy bolter wouldn't be contrary to the tone of their background.

Now I realise why everybody hates the present codex.

World eater vehicles are operated by continues smashing of the previous drivers corpse.

I imagine the previous poster is right in saying the World Eaters legion probably mirrors the Blood Angels in a number of ways, in terms of organization and operation anyway.

The legion probably started out with a basically standard legion organization, with a slight lean towards hand to hand combat that was greatly increased once Angron's influence was felt. So you'd have vehicles and artillery, tactical, assault, and devastator marines, even Librarians, before the Heresy. There would be a heavy emphasis on close assault, like the Blood Angels today, and probably a small but growing body of marines whose bloodlust was growing unstable, corralled into Berzerker units, similar to the Death Company.

I assume as the Heresy wore on, the Berzerker units became larger and the discipline and organization of the legion began to unravel, but there would still be enough support elements to make the legion somewhat functional. Even today there must be enough self-control within the remaining World Eaters in general, and even the Berzerkers themselves to some extent, to make them effective at all in combat. There are probably many World Eaters who are true Berzerkers and cannot control themselves once bullets start to fly, but at least some must be capable of holding themselves in check until their supporting fire is no longer needed before they charge in to slaughter the survivors.

I think Uzas in ADB's Soul Hunter series is an excellent example of a realistic Khorne worshiper. Yes, the guy is mentally unstable, and occasionally devolves into totally mindless butchery, but he's still lucid enough to function as a marine within his unit, and hold actual conversations outside of combat.

Edit: I like to think of World Eater Havoc and other support units like this:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_senarmont.html

French artillery during the Napoleonic era literally charging towards the Russian line, up to less than 200 meters away, then massacring the Russians at close range. If the French could do it with horse-drawn cannons, imagine bloodthirsty and insanely aggressive World Eaters doing that with heavy bolters and autocannons.

A true berserker does not surgical interventions or brainwashing to be a berserker

FuryTheBerserker wrote:A true berserker does not surgical interventions or brainwashing to be a berserker

"Berzerker" ≠ 'berserker'






While any man may spit on the Imperium and hoist a chain-axe, to be a true Berzerker requires the brutal psychosurgery of the World Eaters Legionnaire.

Angron brought this practice to his legion after the Emperor abducted him from his home world. As that surgery was used there to create brutal slave-gladiators (and not raving lunatics who frothed at the mouth and had to be tied down), it clearly doesn't simply make you constantly, uncontrollably violent. The World Eaters functioned as a Legion (a brutal, uncompromising Legion, but a Legion, nonetheless) for quite some time. The psychosurgery itself doesn't make you uncontrollably insane.

Neither does an allegiance to Khorne. Since Khorne has secret cults, his devotees must be able to function somewhat normally and lucidly at times.

I think the best way to think of it is this (not explicitly spelled out in the fluff, but reasonably correct):

To become a Khorne Berzerker, you must be both sworn to the service of Khorne, and have received the psycho-surgery that Angron introduced into his Legion, the World Eaters. As the Legion itself has fragmented, and the technique did not appear to be secret or highly technical, there probably exist people who are not World Eaters Marines who know how to perform the surgery. In addition, nothing about serving Khorne, or about being a recipient of this surgery, makes you loyal to the World Eaters.

Therefore, you can have Khorne Berzerkers who are not members of the World Eaters. They might have defected from the 'Legion', such as it is. They might have been the recipient of psychosurgery without joining the 'Legion'. They might, in fact, simply be Chaos Marines who, through scientific or daemonic intervention, function (game wise) as Berzerkers (say, perhaps, Fabius Bile creates some exceptionally violent Chaos Marines).

I myself would not call the last group "true Berzerkers", just as I would say that marines using the Ultramarines rules, but painted up as White Consuls were not Ultramarines, but White Consuls.

However, given that the most common technique is one practiced by World Eaters Legionnaires, most Berzerkers will be World Eaters Legionnaires (or whatever you call people who belong to the World Eaters non-Legion)

Now, on the second question, I'm not sure that most World Eaters would accept a member into their Legion who had not had the psycho-surgery, any more than an Iron Hand would accept a Marine who refused to get the bionic hand emblematic of being a full Iron Hand Marine. You might have the odd guy who 'joined up' or was forcibly implanted with gene seed and defected before getting psycho-surgery, but I don't think he would qualify as a World Eater, any more than a guy who quits during basic training is a Marine. You might also have (given the vagaries of warp travel) some poor schlub who was a World Eater before Angron joined his Legion popping up, but I think both cases would be so rare as to be irrelevant.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Edit: I like to think of World Eater Havoc and other support units like this:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_senarmont.html

French artillery during the Napoleonic era literally charging towards the Russian line, up to less than 200 meters away, then massacring the Russians at close range. If the French could do it with horse-drawn cannons, imagine bloodthirsty and insanely aggressive World Eaters doing that with heavy bolters and autocannons.

That's not only scarily cool, but also a perfect encapsulation of what I imagined.

Da Butcha wrote:

FuryTheBerserker wrote:A true berserker does not surgical interventions or brainwashing to be a berserker

"Berzerker" ≠ 'berserker'

Berzerker = berserker

English Assassin wrote: quite right to picture a World Eater sniping with a lascannon at extreme range

Hacking at an Imperator Titan with a combat blade does though.

World Eaters must have had stuff Lascannons and other heavy weapons otherwise how would they have done against said Imperator Titan, I know realistically a Lascannon isn't going to do much against an Imperator but you get my meaning. World Eaters might be loud but that can't yell it to death.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I think Uzas in ADB's Soul Hunter series is an excellent example of a realistic Khorne worshiper. Yes, the guy is mentally unstable, and occasionally devolves into totally mindless butchery, but he's still lucid enough to function as a marine within his unit, and hold actual conversations outside of combat.

I wouldn't say he is a true Khorne Bezerker yet as he hasn't gone bonkers, he's like Kroeger from Storm of Iron, likes slaughter and revels in it, but still has a grasp, if a slight one, on reality. You can see that Uzas is going over though. Neither have had the psycho - surgery either.

Da Butcha wrote:
Angron brought this practice to his legion after the Emperor abducted him from his home world.

Nice to see that I am not the only person who thinks this as well

All World Eaters are Bezerkers, but not all Bezerkers are World Eaters.

There are space marines which have given themselves to Khorne and become Khorne Bezerkers. they probably get given the same lobotomization the original legion did.

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Is like a truck
ber-ZER-ker!
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To making
ber-ZER-ker!