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Do we have any more info on them other then the wiki or lexicanum pages - they intrigue me and remind me a lot of the Tau (the cabal fight chaos, could they be responsible for the Tau lack of psykers and extremely fast evolution? plus similar ideals of joining aliens together)

ps I tried the search and it doesnt work so dont blame me if this was already discussed (I keep getting org.apache.lucene.store.AlreadyClosedException: this IndexReader is closed as an error)

The Cabal are a fairly recent creation of the Horus Heresy novels, though I suspect they may make further appearances, they have yet to do so. According to the background at present, the Imperium suspect the Eldar of having a hand in the Tau's engineering - the Cabal did have Eldar members, however, so, though it would be a retcon, it's not an impossibility they might turn out to have been involved.

The Cabal is an alliance of various alien races dedicated to fighting Chaos in all its forms.

The Watchers in the Dark that hang out with Dark Angels are also members of this Cabal.

Omegus wrote:The Cabal is an alliance of various alien races dedicated to fighting Chaos in all its forms.

or so they claim - virtually nothing has been revealed about their true intentions, motivations or which race are involved - it could even be something to do with either the Slann/Old Ones or even the followers of the C'tan who whilst anti-Chaos would be no less unpleasant overlords.........

They are defiantely highly manipulative.

Omegus wrote:The Cabal is an alliance of various alien races dedicated to fighting Chaos in all its forms.

The Watchers in the Dark that hang out with Dark Angels are also members of this Cabal.

News to me. Source?

English Assassin wrote:

Omegus wrote:The Cabal is an alliance of various alien races dedicated to fighting Chaos in all its forms.

The Watchers in the Dark that hang out with Dark Angels are also members of this Cabal.

News to me. Source?

In Descent of Angels, Zahariel goes off hunting the last lion, when he comes to this spooky forest guarded by the Watchers in the Dark. They reveal to him that they are aliens who are keeping tabs on the corruption of Caliban. When he asks them who they are, they reply

We are members of, a brotherhood, much like yourself... a cabal dedicated to thwarting the most ancient evil.

Sure, cabal wasn't capitalized, but come on now, a self-described cabal of aliens who are fighting an eternal battle to keep Chaos in check? Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

My digital copy's page numbers probably don't correspond to the physical text, but it occurs in the last few pages of chapter 7.

I had entirely forgotten that - possibly because the novel bored me half to death.

It nonetheless remains an inference, rather than a confirmed certainty, but I'd agree it's a wholly reasonable one. Presuming that it's correct, however, it raises some interesting grounds for speculation as to the Cabal's history in the ten millennia following the Heresy.

Well, if you'd like a further piece of circumstantial evidence, when Alpharius/Omegon meet the Cabal, they state that the first Space Marine Legion they tried to approach were the Dark Angels, but they dismissed the idea since "there was too much inherent corruption in them".

That's convincing enough for me. I'd not be displeased to see the Cabal return in the 41st millennium.

The Cabal is one of the most interesting parts of the recent influx of fluff in the HH novels.

Actually, now I'd really be rather pleased for the Cabal to be retconned to be the hidden masters behind the Tau.

Unbelievable as it might seem, that might even persuade me to like the Tau...

The Cabals choice of the Alpha Legion is interesting.

Not only because of them being seemingly less corrupt than the DA, but the fact that I think I've read that the Alpha marines even now have unusually pure geneseed. Didn't they join the rebellion, but abstain from joining chaos?

Makes me wonder if they still work with/for the Cabal more than anyone thinks. Maybe John Grammaticus has been rescued from death once again and is still kicking around.

It would be good to see John Grammaticus again. I suspect we might, - he's too interesting a character for him not to have a shot at redemption.

Purity of gene-seed need not necessarily equal purity of heart, I'd be more inclined to think the Dark Angels' 'darkness' lay either in their tainted homeworld or in their (and Jonson's) secrets and lies. Or even that the Cabal were simply flattering Alpharius, having realised they couldn't (for whatever reasons) manipulate the Dark Angels to their purposes.

As for the Alpha Legion, I remain - conscious as I am that I am in the minority - of the opinion that their dramatic purpose is to show that however apparently noble one's motives, to break faith, to side with Chaos, is to be hopelessly damned. I find that more fitting to Warhammer 40,000's tone than the notion - which seems to be the common consensus - that one of the Traitor Legions is really only pretending...

English Assassin wrote:It would be good to see John Grammaticus again. I suspect we might, - he's too interesting a character for him not to have a shot at redemption.

Purity of gene-seed need not necessarily equal purity of heart, I'd be more inclined to think the Dark Angels' 'darkness' lay either in their tainted homeworld or in their (and Jonson's) secrets and lies. Or even that the Cabal were simply flattering Alpharius, having realised they couldn't (for whatever reasons) manipulate the Dark Angels to their purposes.

As for the Alpha Legion, I remain - conscious as I am that I am in the minority - of the opinion that their dramatic purpose is to show that however apparently noble one's motives, to break faith, to side with Chaos, is to be hopelessly damned. I find that more fitting to Warhammer 40,000's tone than the notion - which seems to be the common consensus - that one of the Traitor Legions is really only pretending...

I agree with your assessment, but I don't think they are pretending in anyway. Just wondering if, in fact, they chose to destroy humanity for the betterment of the other races of the Galaxy realizing only humanity can put an end to Chaos. Unfortunately, this requires humanities destruction.

That would kind of make them a third party in the Emperor/humanity-Chaos gods debate.

But the Alpha Legion didn't break faith. They were faithfully loyal to the Emperor, which is why they sided with Horus. The Emperors goal was to eventually destroy Chaos through lack of belief and knowledge of it, and even evetually contact with it by securing use of the webway.

However, they saw what that road was leading to.



They chose to remain loyal to the Emperor himself, not the crusade, and chose the path that led to his ultimate goal, even if it wasn't exactly how the Emperor thought it might end. That's the point of the book - the Alpha Legion were fighting for the Emperor, not the fledgling empire or humanity, literally for the Emperor himself and his goal.

Whether they're still doing that is unknown, since Legion basically retconned the Alpha legion fluff.

Uhlan wrote:I agree with your assessment, but I don't think they are pretending in anyway. Just wondering if, in fact, they chose to destroy humanity for the betterment of the other races of the Galaxy realizing only humanity can put an end to Chaos. Unfortunately, this requires humanities destruction.

That would kind of make them a third party in the Emperor/humanity-Chaos gods debate.

Yes, or at least that would be how I'd characterise Alpharius' choice at the beginning of the Heresy. Following the failure of both Horus' and the Cabal's plans, and Alpharius (apparent) demise, what little coverage there has been of the Alpha Legion (so far as I'm aware just The Siege of Vraks and Dawn of War - the latter of dubious canonicity) suggests they've become as corrupted as their fellow Traitors and signed up to the 'let the galaxy burn' plan.

I remain also inclined to suspicion of the Cabal's motives - the one future they did not suggest to Alpharius, but which their intervention in fact helped to prevent, was the successful conclusion (if it were anyway even possible) of the Emperor's grand plan - either his stated plan of starving the Chaos Gods by eliminating the superstition which fed them, or (since that plan is horribly flawed) what I've wondered might implied to be his actual plan - to spread belief in science and reason sufficient to allow him to ascend to becoming a 'God of Law'. That's thoroughly speculative, of course, and based entirely upon the highly selective combination of inferences from the Horus Heresy novels, twenty year-old fluff text and Michael Moorcock, but the prospect of human dominance over both the material universe and the empyrean might well have been an outcome a coterie of xenos would have feared just as much as the triumph of Chaos.

There's no doubt they manipulated the Alpha Legion, but they did show them an outcome that would appeal to a loyal legion - the accomplishment of the Emperors goal. The Cabal is made up of lots of alien races who really don't like humanity (not many do, really), so showing the Alpha Legion the outcome that gets rid of both Chaos and humanity was probably carefully planned. But still, its a goal the Alpha Legion could work towards and still be fighting for him.

-Loki- wrote:But the Alpha Legion didn't break faith. They were faithfully loyal to the Emperor, which is why they sided with Horus. The Emperors goal was to eventually destroy Chaos through lack of belief and knowledge of it, and even evetually contact with it by securing use of the webway.

However, they saw what that road was leading to.

Spoiler:

10,000 years of suffering and the eventual victory of Chaos, or a few centuries of suffering and the desctruction of Chaos, though at the cost of the human race.

Alpharius and his legion may have told themselves that, even believed it, but they chose, without empirical proof, only philosophical reasoning, to trust some clever aliens who convinced them that they understood their Emperor's plan, and knew better than he how it would end - that's what I mean by breaking faith. Whether or not the Alpha Legion are still working towards that goal is up in the air, though, unless all of their extant post-Heresy background is to be retconned, I'd think it highly inconsistent for the studio to take that direction with them now.

English Assassin wrote:It would be good to see John Grammaticus again. I suspect we might, - he's too interesting a character for him not to have a shot at redemption.

His shot at redemption involved walking out of an airlock. I think seeing him again may be a tad unlikely.

Legion left me suspecting that the Cabal are unwitting pawns of Tzeentch.

The Hunt for Voldorius left me fairly certain that the Cabal is either completely incompetent or not so unwitting. How else could the XX Legion fall so far?

As for the Alpha Legion in Dawn of War it makes sense that the commanders of the Alpha Legion would want to have some of their own members be corrupted to keep up appearances to the rest of the chaos legions. They could have a couple of companies that did turn to chaos do all the work that gets the attention of everyone while the rest of the legion that are uncorrupted and loyal go about their business working against chaos from the inside. We don't know how much Alpharius and Omegon chose to share with the rest of his legion about what their new plan was after meeting the Cabal. It's possible they told only the ones they knew for sure would be loyal the plan while the ones they knew would go bad were told that they were revolting. And one of the primarchs "may" be dead but that still leaves another one to handle all this cloak and dagger stuff which of course is their bread and butter. I read some well written fan fiction about the end of days in the 40k universe that explained how they pulled this off that was pretty good.

Omegus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:It would be good to see John Grammaticus again. I suspect we might, - he's too interesting a character for him not to have a shot at redemption.

His shot at redemption involved walking out of an airlock. I think seeing him again may be a tad unlikely.

He's died a few times. They revive him in new bodies. He was hoping that his little stroll in space would be his last.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deathsadvocate wrote:As for the Alpha Legion in Dawn of War it makes sense that the commanders of the Alpha Legion would want to have some of their own members be corrupted to keep up appearances to the rest of the chaos legions. They could have a couple of companies that did turn to chaos do all the work that gets the attention of everyone while the rest of the legion that are uncorrupted and loyal go about their business working against chaos from the inside.

That doesn't make sense, since their goal was to help Horus succeed, not fail.

-Loki- wrote:There's no doubt they manipulated the Alpha Legion, but they did show them an outcome that would appeal to a loyal legion - the accomplishment of the Emperors goal. The Cabal is made up of lots of alien races who really don't like humanity (not many do, really), so showing the Alpha Legion the outcome that gets rid of both Chaos and humanity was probably carefully planned. But still, its a goal the Alpha Legion could work towards and still be fighting for him.

about not liking humanity currently everyone hates humans in 40k world BUT you have to remember the cabal are even older then the emperor (since they came before humanity) so maybe they don't hate humanity but hate that so many humans fuel the warp realm with their emotions of war etc.
The way I see it is that its going to be REALLY hard to kill of all humans, every alien the humans have killed to extinction still have a few groups stalking the galaxy hating humans surely you cant kill ALL the humans with a simple civil war, also what about the pariah gene etc wouldn't the cabal love the fact that there are humans who aren't affected by the warp.

The way I see it is the cabal know that chaos cant really be destroyed but it can be controlled (Eldar surely know that chaos cant be killed), if they fought chaos before humanity existence surely there were other races that fueled the warp in a similar way that humans have- what if the cabal is made up of alien species who have FED the warp and created the gods we see today like humans have (since most of the cabal members are almost extinct like eldar) but they have destroyed their own species (or someone else did it) and they are now keeping their species in small numbers so that they could never influence the warp the same way and they joined together because even thought they are weak as individual species they are all powerful together???

this would explain why such intelligent and ancient species want to kill of humanity knowing full well it cant kill the warp (some other aliens will fuel them like the bhergasi etc) and the tau could be the cabals other plans to create a non psychic race to rule the galaxy.

Is there a set future?
No.
Is it possible to see one of a bazillion of possible futures?
Maybe.

So this cabal had bare speculation to present.
The AL had nothing to base on any conclusion.
- chaos isn't tied to humanity only. If humans are not there, a replacement will be found.
- visions are unreliable. If visions would lead to the best outcome, why did the Eldar fall?
- the Emperors plans weren't known, no son nor we having more insight have a clear answer.

IMO the story of the cabal is a vessel to transport the theme of secrets hiding more secrets.
The AL may been split into factions with different agendas, but the only hints we have is their portrayal as CSM and the possible manipulation at isstvan. The truth was possibly lost when lies were used regularly.

UselessSage wrote:Legion left me suspecting that the Cabal are unwitting pawns of Tzeentch.

The Hunt for Voldorius left me fairly certain that the Cabal is either completely incompetent or not so unwitting. How else could the XX Legion fall so far?

It's been 10,000 years, the rest of the Legion may not have been "in" on the plan in the first place, and individual Astartes frequently deviate from toeing the Primarch's line.

By the very nature of the Alpha Legion you cant generalize. The ones in The Hunt for Voldorius were only one part, there's no doubting that their purpose may have been corrupted in the last 10,000 years.

What's also interesting is that we do have the intervening 10k years for the authors to add a whole lot of fluff. The Alpha Legion is also the only Legion that may still have a primarch running around somewhere outside of the warp.

We may see, in a new series of books perhaps, the 'agonizing' transformation of the Alpha Legion as it flirts with Chaos and the traitors starting with the Heresy. I think that'd be a good read.

I know BL authors peruse this forum

If neither the Eldar, the Emperor, and the Chaos god Tzeentch can predict the future with 100% certainty...

...why should anyone think the Cabal can?

they are like the TS, originally loyal to mankind but now they are so corrupted there is no way to deny that

Uhlan wrote:What's also interesting is that we do have the intervening 10k years for the authors to add a whole lot of fluff. The Alpha Legion is also the only Legion that may still have a primarch running around somewhere outside of the warp.

We may see, in a new series of books perhaps, the 'agonizing' transformation of the Alpha Legion as it flirts with Chaos and the traitors starting with the Heresy. I think that'd be a good read.

I know BL authors peruse this forum

That's pretty much just what I was thinking - I would assume Dan Abnett and chums have plans for the Alpha Legion (and, one hopes, also for the Cabal).

Or, of course, they may well have something far stranger in mind for them than we would anticipate.

flota wrote:If neither the Eldar, the Emperor, and the Chaos god Tzeentch can predict the future with 100% certainty...

...why should anyone think the Cabal can?

they are like the TS, originally loyal to mankind but now they are so corrupted there is no way to deny that

One would think not, yet a good number of people (not in this thread but elsewhere) seem apt to treat the Cabal's motives as entirely pure and their two predictions as not only accurate but as offering the only two possible futures. Alpharius' tragedy is that in his hubris he believe them, and believed that he knew the Emperor's plans.

Since I would think it unlikely that Games Workshop/Black Library will retcon all of the Alpha Legion's post-Heresy canon (admitting that's not much) then yes, I presume subsequent novels will chronicle their fall to Chaos and reconcile their depiction in M31 with that in M41.

Eldar can foresee the future not with 100% certainty, but pretty damn close. The Acuity was supposedly even more precise.

But yes, most prophesies in 40k are the self-fulfilling kind.