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As the tittle asks, what are better Sea Guard or Spearmen?

mcyeatman wrote:As the tittle asks, what are better Sea Guard or Spearmen?

How many points are you playing?

I think for either unit, you want at least 30 guys, 35-45 isn't bad.
Seaguard let you run a single properly sized block to fill your full core requirement in bigger games.
In smaller games, I'd run spears or archers, as you can't get enough seaguard to be really useful.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

mcyeatman wrote:As the tittle asks, what are better Sea Guard or Spearmen?

How many points are you playing?

I think for either unit, you want at least 30 guys, 35-45 isn't bad.
Seaguard let you run a single properly sized block to fill your full core requirement in bigger games.
In smaller games, I'd run spears or archers, as you can't get enough seaguard to be really useful.

-Matt

Most games will be in the 2000-2500 point range. I already have a 20 man block of Sea Guard from the IOB set. The idea of shooting and have spears is nice but pricey.

mcyeatman wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

mcyeatman wrote:As the tittle asks, what are better Sea Guard or Spearmen?

How many points are you playing?

I think for either unit, you want at least 30 guys, 35-45 isn't bad.
Seaguard let you run a single properly sized block to fill your full core requirement in bigger games.
In smaller games, I'd run spears or archers, as you can't get enough seaguard to be really useful.

-Matt

Most games will be in the 2000-2500 point range. I already have a 20 man block of Sea Guard from the IOB set. The idea of shooting and have spears is nice but pricey.

At 2500, you could do 2 useful units of spears, or 1 big unit of sea guard. I think the key with elves is to make sure your core isn't too small to be useful.
45 Seaguard, with full command, and a 15 point magic banner is 625 points, which is exactly 25% of your required core for 2500.
I'd look at getting more seaguard, since you already have 20.

-Matt

I usually play 3k games. I have 2 30 man Spears, and a 15 man Archer block.

I used to run with a unit of Seaguard, but I just found that they were underwhelming for their cost. Their ability to shoot never made it worth the extra points I had to pay for it.

I find it depends on whether you're planning on marching across the field and getting stuck in, or holding your ground and whittling the enemy down before he reaches you.

If you march across the field, your sea guard will have to move normally to fire, falling behind your main line, or march with everyone else and not fire. You end up getting a pricey unit that underperforms in both roles.

On the other hand, if you plan on forcing the enemy to come to you, then you can take seaguard as a useful unit to support your ranged fire, the switch up to block formation and hold the line. In this instance you get a unit that actually does perform both roles well.

I have played against HE a number of times, and from my personal experience I believe that LSG arent worth there points. True they are a flexible unit, but the only way I have seen them run effectively is if you run a large unit of at least 35+, and even then they dont do much w/S3 shots and end up costing 4 points more then a standard Spearmen, which adds up very quick.

But as sebster says, if you plan to play defensively, then the LSG can be a decent support unit that can hold there own in CC, but if you want to take the fight to the enemy, then I would go with Spearmen.

Thanks for the feedback.

Another question - Which is more effective for the points, the Lion Chariot or Tiranoc Chariot? I was also thinking about putting a noble in a Tiranoc with BSB.

Thanks!

mcyeatman wrote:Thanks for the feedback.

Another question - Which is more effective for the points, the Lion Chariot or Tiranoc Chariot? I was also thinking about putting a noble in a Tiranoc with BSB.

Thanks!

Neither is all that cost-effective unless used very tactically (since they're one-hit-wonders that don't even hit very hard.)

In my opinion, the regular chariot is the less-overpriced of the two.
The Lion Chariot doesn't get get D6+1 impacts even though it costs twice as much.
The Lion Chariot is still fragile as all hell with T4 4 wounds and 5+ save for 140 points.
The Lion Chariot does slightly more damage on the charge (the Lions are decent 4 S5 attacks, but they don't have ASF so it's WS4 no-rerolls makes them overpriced.
The Elves on top only have +2 strength over the spear elves. Again, not worth costing twice as much with no increased survivability.

A Lion Chariot just takes too little effort to kill. Half as many spells or cannonballs or stegadon charges as just having two regular chariots instead.
The two regular chariots would do 2d6 S5 auto-hits that go before ASF + 4 S4 elven attacks + 4 S3 horse hits.
Charge anything half-decent with one Lion Chariot and roll a 1 for impact hits, goodbye 140 point chariot. 2d6 is more reliable.

The Tiranoc Chariot doesn't get D6+1 impact hits either, they don't have scythes or the option for scythes. The Lion Chariot also causes Fear, which the Tiranoc Chariot doesn't, and has a 4+ save, not the 5+ of a Tiranoc.

I'm not saying that they're a good choice, just that they're better than portrayed.

Lion chariot is pretty.
Horse chariots are better.

-Matt

Is running your BSB in the chariot a good or bad idea?

Bad, very very bad. A Chariot is very easy to pick out with cannons, spells, shooting etc. Exactly the opposite of what you want flying at your BSB.

The best BSB set-up for a mainly foot-based HE list is:

Noble w/ BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone/Guardian Phoenix.

The dawnstone/guardian phoenix is generally based on what you tend to fight; a lot of armour ignoring or S7 attacks going to be hitting your BSB? Take the Phoenix. Anything else? Take the dawnstone. Since I don't tend to shove my BSB in front of any S7 attacks or attacks that ignore armour, I find the dawnstone to be a better choice, but YMMV.

Dawnstone + Armour of Caledor gives you:
vs S1-S3 - 2+ re-rollable armour save.
vs S4 - 3+ re-rollable armour save.
vs S5 - 4+ re-rollable armour save.
vs S6 - 5+ re-rollable armour save.
vs S7 - 6+ re-rollable armour save.
vs S8+ - No armour save.

Guardian Phoenix + Armour of Caledor gives you:
vs S1-S3 - 2+ armour save/5+ Ward Save.
vs S4 - 3+ armour save/5+ Ward Save.
vs S5 - 4+ armour save/5+ Ward Save.
vs S6 - 5+ armour save/5+ Ward Save.
vs S7 - 6+ armour save/5+ Ward Save.
vs S8+ - 5+ Ward Save.

As you can see, the Phoenix is worse than the Dawnstone at S1-5, equally good at S6, and better at S7+ and when against attacks that ignore armour.

For BSB placement, you shouldn't really need one until 1500pts, at which point you should be able to afford a unit of Phoenix Guard for him to go in, as Phoenix Guard will probably be a staple unit at 1500pts and greater; if not, he's just as happy in a large unit of Spearmen/LSG, or a unit of White Lions if you've nothing else; Swordmasters should be your last choice for him, since they're a large threat, and will be targeted early, plus they lack the Ward Saves of Phoenix Guard, numbers of Spearmen/LSG, and the shooting resistance of White Lions.

Avatar 720 wrote:The Tiranoc Chariot doesn't get D6+1 impact hits either, they don't have scythes or the option for scythes. The Lion Chariot also causes Fear, which the Tiranoc Chariot doesn't, and has a 4+ save, not the 5+ of a Tiranoc.

I'm not saying that they're a good choice, just that they're better than portrayed.

Except I never said it does and also at twice the cost of a Tiranoc Chariot, a Lion Chariot's D6 impact hits is facing 2D6 impact hits from 2 Tiranoc Chariots, a whole 3.5 more average autohits.
T4 8 wounds 5+ save from two tiranocs is significantly more durable than T4 4 wounds 4+ save for the overpriced Lion Chariot.
Lion Chariot Portrayed - unreliable, expensive, nothing special damage-wise for 140 points. No, they aren't any better than portrayed. Fear does absolutely nothing offensive which is the role of a chariot.

I never said that you did say it does, only that the Tiranoc doesn't get them either and so isn't better in that respect.

Also, they are better than portrayed, since you missed the 4+ save and Fear. Also note I stated that it didn't make them good.

a 4+ is better than the 5+ you thought they had, ergo, they are better than you made them out to be.

Thinking of starting a HE army focused on spears or sea guard.

I had some thoughts on Sea Guard.

Without shields they only cost 3 points more than a spearman.

Question: Are shields worth it on Sea Guard? They don't get a parry so it's paying a point to go from a 6+ to a 5+, and neither one seems like much protection given how most attacks that hurt will be S4.

Has anybody fought against with multiple an army of sea guard (The meat of the army is sea guard instead of large block of white lions). It seems the #1 problem with sea guard is their poor synergism with other HE infantry blocks. If all the major infantry blocks were sea guard that problem would go away.

Next thought: The costs to upgrade 33 spearmen to sea guard is about the cost of a bolt thrower. If you think of it as spending points on an upgrade (shields to bows) instead of the entire cost of the unit the cost of the bow shots alone is quite reasonable. 33/6=The ratio is about 5.5 bow shots per bolt thrower shot which means the bows should do far more damage.

Math hammer example against T4 3+ save target, one of the least effective targets for long bows
Bows at long range, stand and shoot, or short range move and fire 1/2hit 1/3wound 1/3 failed saves=1/18 shots kill
Bolt thrower 2/3 hit 1/2 wound 2/3 failed armor saves=4/18 shots kill
The bolt thrower is less than 5.5 times as effective (Though it would actually be more effective in single shot mode).

Anyhow it doesn't seem like that bad of a deal if it can synergize with the rest of the army, and enough bows might take the need away from having bolt throwers. Without bolt throwers there would be no war machines to protect.

i was gonna run them until i realised that...


say, 40 seaguard... 545 with full command

or:

35 spearmen, full command
(AND) 20 archers - both units come to 560pts


you get better (longer range) shooting and your spearmen are not locked on the spot because if they move your (shorter range) shooting becomes even worse.... plus of course you get an extra 15 bodies on the table (more if you drop a few archers into spearmen).


sea guard are ok but i think they are a lot of points when you can get more units that do the same/a better job for the same points

schadenfreude wrote:Thinking of starting a HE army focused on spears or sea guard.

I had some thoughts on Sea Guard.

Without shields they only cost 3 points more than a spearman.

Question: Are shields worth it on Sea Guard? They don't get a parry so it's paying a point to go from a 6+ to a 5+, and neither one seems like much protection given how most attacks that hurt will be S4.

Has anybody fought against with multiple an army of sea guard (The meat of the army is sea guard instead of large block of white lions). It seems the #1 problem with sea guard is their poor synergism with other HE infantry blocks. If all the major infantry blocks were sea guard that problem would go away.

Next thought: The costs to upgrade 33 spearmen to sea guard is about the cost of a bolt thrower. If you think of it as spending points on an upgrade (shields to bows) instead of the entire cost of the unit the cost of the bow shots alone is quite reasonable. 33/6=The ratio is about 5.5 bow shots per bolt thrower shot which means the bows should do far more damage.

Math hammer example against T4 3+ save target, one of the least effective targets for long bows
Bows at long range, stand and shoot, or short range move and fire 1/2hit 1/3wound 1/3 failed saves=1/18 shots kill
Bolt thrower 2/3 hit 1/2 wound 2/3 failed armor saves=4/18 shots kill
The bolt thrower is less than 5.5 times as effective (Though it would actually be more effective in single shot mode).

Anyhow it doesn't seem like that bad of a deal if it can synergize with the rest of the army, and enough bows might take the need away from having bolt throwers. Without bolt throwers there would be no war machines to protect.

My friend borrowed my HEs off me the other day and tried a build based around a gak ton of LSG and mindrazor/withering backed up by bolt throwers.

It wasnt top tier but nor was it a cakewalk to fight against he simply withered a unit a turn and it then got shot it to pieces followed by mindrazor on his large blocks of spearmen once I closed. If someone was looking for a cheap HE build that used alot of LSG they could do worse.

Don't forget that Lion chariots are stubborn, amazing to tie things in place even if you loose combat.

I prefer the spears and the archers. The lorien guys are good but as someone mentioned you better have a darned good plan for them.

Spears and archers archers way to go. They do what sea guard do but cheaper and at a better range.

Iago wrote:Don't forget that Lion chariots are stubborn, amazing to tie things in place even if you loose combat.

Only if the enemy is somehow so weak he can't do 4 wounds to toughness 4. (Although really, anyone smart will just instantly shoot Lion chariots dead because they're pathetically squishy for costing 140 points)
For the cost of 15 Spearmen and 11 wounds less to survive even 1-2 magic missiles, it's free victory points for the enemy.

Dark Elf Chariot is T5 with 4 wounds and a 3+ save, D6+1 and it costs 40 less points. 3x harder to kill with S3 than Lion Chariot.

HE bowmen at 15-30":
48 bow shots to insta-kill a Lion Chariot (140 points.)
144 bow shots to insta-kill a Dark Elf Chariot (100 points.)

Any bolt throwers, gunlines, magic missiles, or other shooty war machines just instantly vaporize Lion Chariots even though they cost 47% more than Tiranoc chariots.

It's not even good for them to soak shooting because they're the worst points efficiency of anything to let the enemy shoot.
Enemy sorc doombolts the Lion Chariot, average 2 wounds done, 70 points of damage.
If he'd doombolted Spearmen, average 3 wounds done, 27 points of damage, 43 points less damage suffered.
I'm ecstatic when an enemy buys a really expensive melee unit which is really fragile against any type of shooting and fragile against magic.