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Okay, so I'm a Tau player going to 'Ard Boyz. I only own 5 broadsides, but my list calls for 9. Thus, for my two ASS squads, I've been using Tyranid Warriors (who are on the same base, very close to the same size, and have a small arm to represent SMS) with a railgun modded onto them as "count as" broadsides ("bioservitors", as I like to call them).

If you came up against me in a tournament, would you call "shenanigans"? Or is "count as" okay as long as it is the same size/shape and reasonably clear?

In a tournament I would have a problem. You need you ASS squads to have ASS models, not tyranids.

In a pick up game, go for it.

-cgmckenzie

Well, there is no ASS piece of wargear...

Won't pass for 5 seconds at a tournament.

Iron-Fist wrote:Okay, so I'm a Tau player going to 'Ard Boyz. I only own 5 broadsides, but my list calls for 9. Thus, for my two ASS squads, I've been using Tyranid Warriors (who are on the same base, very close to the same size, and have a small arm to represent SMS) with a railgun modded onto them as "count as" broadsides ("bioservitors", as I like to call them).

If you came up against me in a tournament, would you call "shenanigans"? Or is "count as" okay as long as it is the same size/shape and reasonably clear?

'ard Boyz requires WYSIWYG. You are Proxying no matter how much you care calling them 'counts as'.

This is the difference between using a Carnifex as an ork Deff Dred and making a 'looted carnifex'. One is a proxy that will not be allowed, one is 'counts as' that will be allowed to be WYSIWYG because of 'rule of cool'.

Now if you made an effort to model some sort of 'bioservators' to be an alien species part of the Tau empire then you could live or die by 'rule of cool'. Not saying it is impossible, but it would take effort to make the nid warrior reflect all the weapons and gear and look like more of an intentional conversion opposed to a random proxy.

Nope wouldn't fly at a tourney, though I would have no problem at all in a friendly game.

Past giving it railguns and SMS pods, there's not much you can do for Broadsides; few battlesuit upgrade options have bitz for them; making WYSIWYG a bit of an issue for Tau at times, and is probably why a good amount of options have hard-wired wargear versions (explicit exceptions to the WYSIWYG rule, since they're implanted into the suit itself and therefore not outwardly visible), but not all suits in the squad can purchase these hard-wired versions.

If you ask a Tau player where his Broadside's ASS is, he'll either tell you it didn't come with one on the sprue, or he'll hell point to the broadside's butt, have a bit of a laugh, and then tell you there isn't anything to model it.

This is even harder with a Tyranid Warrior, as although you have grounds to say they didn't come with it using your actual broadsides as proof, nothing short of buying a new broadside and pointing out each sprue option can really convince people you aren't just lazy and didn't put it on anything to give yourself an excuse.

It'd need to be an exceptional conversion to convince people.

check with the T.O. they usually have last word, and if the T.O gives you the ok, then anyone you play with in that tourney can munch it. if they have issues refer them to the T.O. pick up games its up to the player your facing. in both regards i would make darn sure you have everything shown and told before game time, and maybe even written down so people dont get confused.

I don't really see the issue here. He's modelling them as the appropriate size, giving them all relevant wargear that you can (and the idea that they are more free-moving with the lack of armor can explain the stabilizers), and hopefully they are well made and not just glued together haphazardly. Can someone explain to me what is wrong with this? Tau induct aliens into their ranks all the time, and it isn't too inconceivable that there would be another Tyranid-looking organism in the universe they could convince/force to join.

This is the difference between using a Carnifex as an ork Deff Dred and making a 'looted carnifex'. One is a proxy that will not be allowed, one is 'counts as' that will be allowed to be WYSIWYG because of 'rule of cool'.

How much "looting" is required to make it a looted carnifex? He never said he was just throwing in a Tyranid Warrior. He said he was using Warriors with Tau weaponry added.

You DO need something better than small arms for your SMS - I suggest buying bits for Deathwind or Cyclone Missile Launchers. Also, I'm not sure how Tau boxes are, but if you have spare armor plates to attach to legs/shoulders that would help as well.

nkelsch wrote:'ard Boyz requires WYSIWYG. You are Proxying no matter how much you care calling them 'counts as'.

This is the difference between using a Carnifex as an ork Deff Dred and making a 'looted carnifex'. One is a proxy that will not be allowed, one is 'counts as' that will be allowed to be WYSIWYG because of 'rule of cool'.

Now if you made an effort to model some sort of 'bioservators' to be an alien species part of the Tau empire then you could live or die by 'rule of cool'. Not saying it is impossible, but it would take effort to make the nid warrior reflect all the weapons and gear and look like more of an intentional conversion opposed to a random proxy.

Could be you're right. Makes me wonder if you could use non-space wolf marines as space wolves though. I mean, anything else is "count as", really.

Seems like the consensus is one of the two:
A) No proxies or non-cannon conversions should be allowed at tournaments, but of course are fine in fun games.
B) Only good proxies with lots of effort put into them can be used as "count as".

I guess I have my answer, although I don't really understand the whole thing. Honestly, couldn't I just tape a railgun to the back of the thing, glue some SMS to base, and as long as it is a GW model of the same size have it be WYSIWYG? Would hardly spice up a Rogue Trader, but at 'Ard Boyz...

I guess I'll just make sure to check with the TO. Thx guys.

Yes, Talk to your TO, thats really his call weather he allows it or not.

Iron-Fist wrote:Could be you're right. Makes me wonder if you could use non-space wolf marines as space wolves though. I mean, anything else is "count as", really.

I have a Space Marine force of my own chapter color scheme, I use them as Blood Angels usually, but I have been working on a Space Wolf Army, Marines are marines, Power armor is Power armor, Terminator armor is Terminator armor.

I see no issue using power armored space marines as Space wolves (Which are power armored space marines)

If you want an "official" opinion, contact the TO.

If you want the opinions of the membes of this board, show us a picture.

Steelmage99 wrote:If you want an "official" opinion, contact the TO.

If you want the opinions of the membes of this board, show us a picture.

This is a pretty reasonable response and contacting the TO does make a lot of sense, which is probably why no-one does, because it is too sensible.....

Iron-Fist wrote:

I guess I have my answer, although I don't really understand the whole thing. Honestly, couldn't I just tape a railgun to the back of the thing, glue some SMS to base, and as long as it is a GW model of the same size have it be WYSIWYG? Would hardly spice up a Rogue Trader, but at 'Ard Boyz...

I guess I'll just make sure to check with the TO. Thx guys.

there is more to wysiwyg than just weapons. Armor save, wound profile and general model are also part of it. If you want to convert something, you live and die by rule of cool. Taping a railgun to a random tyrannic will be seen as a lazy proxy by someone trying to spam a metalists. A warrior with tau bits and weapons carefully modeled to be integrated with a matching paint job to the rest of the army will be seen as a cool conversion.

Google looted carnifex. http://www.google.com/search?q=looted+carnifex&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=u&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ATJWTua7NITHgAfbvvyuDA&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=660

And this which is awesome:http://www.davidyoungart.co.uk/wp/2011/07/looted-carnifex/


Those will be seen as good 'counts as' and not a proxy and allowed at most wysiwyg tourneys.

It has to be a completed conversion-well modeled, fully painted, and based for it to be considered legal in a tournament. As others have said, rule of cool is the guiding light here.

I personally convert the hell out of my orks, using dreadknights, dreadnoughts, and rhinos because I like rubbing SM faces in it. I fully paint them and they actually look good. If I just grabbed a dreadnought and called it my deff dread, I would be laughed off the board.

-cgmckenzie

If your entire army were tyranids specifically holding the exact same weapons the Tau would have AND represented by different models per unit (termagaunts=firewarriors, hormagaunts=kroot, etc.) AND had matching corresponding base sizes, then you could be fine. Otherwise, no chance.

if they have the right armament then i'd say wysiwyg... explain it as they were trying the suits to be used as camoflauge in a tyranid fight and the tyranids saw through the disguise.. they simply have yet to deconvert the look

If you need conversions to the warrior to make it more Tau-y, I'd say greenstuff some drone bitz or a few spare pieces of wargear from any crisis suits you may have lying around (Suitably modded so they just look like cybernetic implants and not the original wargear) onto the carapace.

cgmckenzie wrote:It has to be a completed conversion-well modeled, fully painted, and based for it to be considered legal in a tournament. As others have said, rule of cool is the guiding light here.

-cgmckenzie

This... this is your opinion and absolutely NOT what is stated in the Ard Boyz flyers. The only real rule is that the model begin as a GW model and maintain 50% GW parts. All optional wargear needs be modeled as well. (Thus marines technically dont need to model Kraks, but Meltas are required.)

So for your Tau-anid conversion, yea, you could model the appropriate weapons (Railgun and whatever else), have it covered in greenstuff, unpainted, and be legal.

Only someone who wants a no-game win and/or misunderstands the conversion rule to mean "Super awesome conversions only" will complain. (Generally it's elitism that's taking place.. THEY took that time on THEIR models so it isnt FAIR that YOU didnt.")

But remember, your weapons and base sizes and *optional* wargear must be spot on.

Thunderfrog wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:It has to be a completed conversion-well modeled, fully painted, and based for it to be considered legal in a tournament. As others have said, rule of cool is the guiding light here.

-cgmckenzie

This... this is your opinion and absolutely NOT what is stated in the Ard Boyz flyers. The only real rule is that the model begin as a GW model and maintain 50% GW parts. All optional wargear needs be modeled as well. (Thus marines technically dont need to model Kraks, but Meltas are required.)

So for your Tau-anid conversion, yea, you could model the appropriate weapons (Railgun and whatever else), have it covered in greenstuff, unpainted, and be legal.

Only someone who wants a no-game win and/or misunderstands the conversion rule to mean "Super awesome conversions only" will complain. (Generally it's elitism that's taking place.. THEY took that time on THEIR models so it isnt FAIR that YOU didnt.")

But remember, your weapons and base sizes and *optional* wargear must be spot on.

Agreed...if you are going to go this route you ABSOLUTELY can't have any mistakes in your modeled wargear. Somepeople will let things slide if you are using the actual models, but if you go with alternate model choices with wargear added people are far less forgiving.

Thunderfrog wrote:


This... this is your opinion and absolutely NOT what is stated in the Ard Boyz flyers. The only real rule is that the model begin as a GW model and maintain 50% GW parts. All optional wargear needs be modeled as well. (Thus marines technically dont need to model Kraks, but Meltas are required.)

Well, and that the model is actually related to what you are showing. I can't say a grot is a terminator simply because it is a GW model. I also can't make a Deff Dred a chimera because a large tank that transports is significantly different from a walker. If you tried to argue some RAW saying the pamphlet doesn't say so you are going to have trouble.

The only thing is that warriors and broadsides share a similar statline and model profile... if this was a random other 40mm model, it simply wouldn't even begin to work.

Personally, if I was a Tau player, I think having Xenos as integrated Tau followers would be fine... but would take effort. Some Tau armor and Bionics and a paintscheme can go a long way for gaining acceptance. The goal of events is to not go in and wave a flier around and make waves yelling about how your rights have been violated and you should be able to proxy your warriors as broadsides because technically it didn't say you can't.

Rule of Cool rules common sense and is really the best approach to 'events' along with asking the TO. No 'ard boyz flier is going to get you in to a tourney if the TO disagrees with your interpretation of WYSIWYG and legal.

While it is my opinion, it is also that of most of the community. In something like hard boyz, converted models would be ok but if it is a poor job, I can call TO over and say 'I see nids, not tau.' You should be able to field all legitimate models for a tourney or be prepared to be told you can't field it.

-cgmckenzie