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Hey everyone!

I was wondering yesterday when playing with my Daemons against Tau, that can a monstorous creature charge in a building? Does flying make any difference?
Rulebook says that you can hit enemies from one floor lower, but i don't know whats the case with charging. (It just makes my 3 daemon princes very unhappy )

thanks!

Are you talking about ruins?Yes they can charge,just remember the DT and MTC.If you get to the botom and have 3" of movment left you could go up a level,as long as you can fit.

I don't think flying has an effect,but it honestly should.

We just tend to play difficult terrain, but not sure of the official rules. If it's a case of charging through an archway and the model is bigger, if it's obvious that the MC could just bend down and get through, we still allow it with D.T.

Lumppu wrote:Hey everyone!

I was wondering yesterday when playing with my Daemons against Tau, that can a monstorous creature charge in a building? Does flying make any difference?
Rulebook says that you can hit enemies from one floor lower, but i don't know whats the case with charging. (It just makes my 3 daemon princes very unhappy )

thanks!

Assuming you're talking about ruins (and not buildings) then check out page 83 of the rulebook, which tells you what type of units may climb up levels in ruins.

And if even if you can't physically place the model on an upper level (because its too big), you are still allowed to 'count' as being up there, using the 'wobbly model syndrome' guidelines on page 13 of the rulebook.

Actually, models are only allowed to climb buildings if they can be physically be placed there. No wobbly model syndrome for them, see page 83, first paragraph.

Jidmah wrote:Actually, models are only allowed to climb buildings if they can be physically be placed there. No wobbly model syndrome for them, see page 83, first paragraph.

That is a very good point, and yet on page 85 (the assault rules) they seem to indicate that it is perfectly acceptable to do so!

So I guess only when making assault moves would the 'wobbly model syndrome' be able to be utilized(?).

The assault moves aren't really the wobbly model syndrome rules, as the model are not actually moving up a floor and then counts as being there, but rather is allowed to count as base-to-base while being on different floors.

That said, a walker or monstrous creature on the ground floor could utilize those assault rules to attack a unit on the first floor, even if it can't climb the building.

Conclusion:
- WMS allows you move a model to place you can not physically place it.
- Ruins do not allow models that can not physically placed to climb them
- Ruins do allow models from levels above or below to attack as if they were in base contact if they move as close as possible. This also applies to models that couldn't climb the ruin in the first place.

Jidmah wrote:
This also applies to models that couldn't climb the ruin in the first place.

I agree with everything you said except for this part. The ruins assault rules say (emphasis mine):

"In some cases the ruin might genuinely be unstable or uneven, or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move assaulting models into base-to-base contact with the unit they wish to assault. When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place the models as close to their foe as is safely possible, including the level below or above, providing that you place the assaulting models as close as possible to their opponents and you make clear to your opponent which of your models are in base-to-base contact with his models."


So in order to utilize this rule, the assaulting models must not be able to move into base contact on another level of the ruins because the ruin is unstable, or space on a level is limited.

In the case of beasts/cavalry, they simply are not ever given permission to move to an upper level of a ruin and therefore they are not eligible to benefit from this rule.

Ah, I wasn't thinking of cavalry/bikes, but of big walkers or MCs.

With a demon prince your prolly gonna get them all after the counter-assault moves anyway. At least so I thought....

yes but say a dev squad on 2nd floor of a ruin which has only a 2" walkway would be safe from assualt from a trygon as tha trygon can never get up there due to it being so large it would not fit on the levels

seems unfair but makes sense to me

You mean the trygon that is about 6 inches tall?Couldn't hit some modals 3'' up?

Actually it could, it just can't hit something 6" up, which would be second floor.

So the conclusion is, that you can charge into ruins , even if you don't physically fit there, if your charge range is enough to get to base-contact, amirite?

No, you're not. A model to big to fit into the ruin may still move through the bottom floor(after all, a battlewagon may drive through it).

Assault rules allow that model to count as being in base to base contact with a model on first floor, without moving up there.

so anything on the 2nd floor of a ruin with thin walkways and low ceiling heights is safe from MC's?

croggy wrote:so anything on the 2nd floor of a ruin with thin walkways and low ceiling heights is safe from MC's?

If thats the case, its kinda stupid. And whats the case if you're flying? Can you jump to 2nd floor and charge (even if your base doesn't fit)?

hell no
sucks doesn,t it

You could fly up for the moverment.Just make sure you take DT test.

croggy wrote:so anything on the 2nd floor of a ruin with thin walkways and low ceiling heights is safe from MC's?

Yes. Ironically this would make sense in real life.

Lumppu wrote:If thats the case, its kinda stupid. And whats the case if you're flying? Can you jump to 2nd floor and charge (even if your base doesn't fit)?

If your base can't fit, you can't jump up there. You could jump onto the top level and then attack a model below you, though. Also note that jump infantry doesn't jump during their charge.

Jidmah wrote:

croggy wrote:so anything on the 2nd floor of a ruin with thin walkways and low ceiling heights is safe from MC's?

Yes. Ironically this would make sense in real life.

Lumppu wrote:If thats the case, its kinda stupid. And whats the case if you're flying? Can you jump to 2nd floor and charge (even if your base doesn't fit)?

If your base can't fit, you can't jump up there. You could jump onto the top level and then attack a model below you, though. Also note that jump infantry doesn't jump during their charge.

I'm not understanding how you're coming to that conclusion. I thought we agreed that with a Monstrous Creature that can't move up to a small upper level (because there isn't enough room to place them there) *is* allowed to make an assault move to 'count as' being in base contact with models on upper levels, per the ruins assault rules on page 85.

So while a Trygon wouldn't technically be able to move up to an upper level of a small ruin, he could make an assault move and 'count as' being in base contact with models on those upper levels and therefore assault them.

one level up yes but not if the models were on the 2nd floor

croggy wrote:one level up yes but not if the models were on the 2nd floor

Maybe this is a cultural difference? Here in the USA if you are one floor up from the ground floor it is called the 2nd floor. If you're on the second floor from the ground then you're on the 3rd floor. This same nomenclature is used in hotels, for example.

So anyway, when I say 2nd floor I mean the one right above ground level (3" up).

But honestly I see no reason that a MC can't assault 6" up into a ruin either if he rolls a '6' for his DT when assaulting.

With ruins, only coherency within units is measured from the head of a model to the base of another model. For enemy models, you're still measuring distance from base to base. So a Trygon could move directly underneath an enemy unit that was 6" up (the 3rd level) and then in the assault phase if a '6' is rolled for Assault distance he would 'count as' being in base contact with those models on the 3rd floor (6" up).

Anyone see any flaws with that reasoning?

That sounds correct to me Yak.

WMS, and the rules for ruins assaulting and bases calling it close enough, seem to back your position.

As long as you make the appropriate tests I see nothing disallowing any MC an assault on an upper lvl of a ruin.

If they have wings that makes it even easier, since they can fly to whatever level they want (Dangerous Terrain test as usual) then assault baring the result of a difficult terrain test.

yakface wrote:

croggy wrote:one level up yes but not if the models were on the 2nd floor

Maybe this is a cultural difference? Here in the USA if you are one floor up from the ground floor it is called the 2nd floor. If you're on the second floor from the ground then you're on the 3rd floor. This same nomenclature is used in hotels, for example.

So anyway, when I say 2nd floor I mean the one right above ground level (3" up).

But honestly I see no reason that a MC can't assault 6" up into a ruin either if he rolls a '6' for his DT when assaulting.

With ruins, only coherency within units is measured from the head of a model to the base of another model. For enemy models, you're still measuring distance from base to base. So a Trygon could move directly underneath an enemy unit that was 6" up (the 3rd level) and then in the assault phase if a '6' is rolled for Assault distance he would 'count as' being in base contact with those models on the 3rd floor (6" up).

Anyone see any flaws with that reasoning?

Yeah, cultural thing. To me the ground floor is on ground level, 1st floor at 3" and the 2nd floor is 6" up.

Main reason for the trygon (in RAW) being unable to assault someone on the (by your count) third floor, is the rules for assault by moving as close as possible explicitly for stating that you may only use them, if the assaulted models are one floor above or below you. However, I would let a huge MC assault a model on higher levels godzilla-style any day, as long as the actual model can reach it.