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Can you say that a vehicle moves flat out and ends in the exact position it started in?

no it has to move 12.0000000000000001"

The rules say I may combine forward and reverse movement. It never says I must end my move >12" away from my starting position.

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!"(BRB pg. 63)

If you don't move, you can't move flat-out. Sure, a vehicle could move 18" and still end up being 7" away from where it started. Yet this would be an instance of manoeuvring around terrain. If a vehicle ends up in the same place, or ever 1" or 2" away, it will have moved that distance. Anyone worth his salt will rule it that way. Of course if it was moved around difficult terrain, that's another matter.

Ok, thank you.

Jidmah wrote:"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in circles does not help!"(BRB pg. 63)

The above is only for vehicles and rolling to hit against vehicles.

A Skimmer that is not immobilized and has moved flat out in its last movement phase counts as obscured when fired at.

Actually it's a pretty universal statement, just placed in the first topic it mattered. There is no evidence of it being unique to hitting vehicles in cc, especially as those are also measured in "stationary, combat speed, cruising speed", rather than inches.

Except its listed in the assaulting vehicles section, right after the chart for hitting vehicles in CC.

Hence why it lists the chart and says "Note:..." Its a reminder about movement and the CC chart.

That logic would break the entire rule set. You can move outside of the movement phase, you can wound outside of shooting and all sorts of other stuff can happen outside of the exact situation GW happened to described it. The rules do not work that way.

I realized something while researching this issue:

"...This means that a vehicle may combine forward and reverse movement in the same turn providing it does not exceed its maximum move...." (BRB, page 57) This relates to how far a vehicle has moved, summing up all movement. So, three inches forward and three inches backward is a total of six inches of movement, thus the vehicle moved at combat speed as detailed on page 57.

However....

"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from it original position. Moving backwards and forwards or driving around in a circle does not help!" (BRB, page 63) So, this states it's not about the physical amount of movement just the total displacement. So, three inches forward and three inches backward is a net displacement of zero inches, i.e., stationary.

So, given the following:

Vs - Vehicle staring position
Ve - Vehicle ending position
T - terrain driven around

Example
*** *T* Vs***T***Ve T

In the example, the distance between Vs and Ve is 6". The vehicle traveled 12" going around the terrain to get to Ve. Using the rules detailed on page 57, the vehicle is traveling at cruising speed. Using the rules on page 63, the vehicle is traveling at combat speed. Which is it?

Movement isn't total traveled, it's total moved from the origin point.

Moving 7 away from your starting location, and 7 back, you count as moving, but that's it.

If you move away from were the vehicle is 12.5 inches, you went flat out. If you then moved back an inch, you actually went 11.5

The rules on page 63 only apply to rolling to hit against vehicles in assault since it is a note in reference to that specific table.

At least, that's how I would rule it.

edit:
That said, the generalized movement rules do kind of lead towards treating the check as 'actual distance traveled' so I'm honestly not sure :3

juraigamer wrote:Movement isn't total traveled, it's total moved from the origin point.

Moving 7 away from your starting location, and 7 back, you count as moving, but that's it.

If you move away from were the vehicle is 12.5 inches, you went flat out. If you then moved back an inch, you actually went 11.5

Using the example, did the Vehicle move at combat or cruising speed? Or is it combat speed for assaulting, but cruising for everything else?

Combat for assaulting, as only the actual displacement counts. Cruising for how many weapons you may fire.

Flat-out is also a movement concept used by models (i.e. bikes or jetbikes) with the Turbo-Boost special rule. Turbo-Boost dictates that you must move at least 18" away from your original position (so going around impassable terrain may negate the bonus) in order to claim the cover save.

Hope this helps when you patch the rules manually.

Flat-out has nothing to do with Turbo-boosters and, furthermore, the cover save is worded differently.

Equating the two is likely to cause additional confusion.

He does, however, have a point. This is another instance of distance traveled being measured from start to end point, rather than actual distance traveled, and it even mentions flat-out speed in its rules.

The turbo boosters rule (which applies only to non-vehicle models) refers to "flat-out speed". Not the same as the speed band for vehicles called "flat out".

Also, since the consensus here is that vehicle movement is measured differently than other models (measure straight, turn, measure straight, etc) then it's simply not applicable. If we applied the regular movement standard (measure from start point to end point) it would resolve this problem as well as the vehicle turn+move=extra-movement problem.

So, just to be clear, for purposes of assaulting, only the vehicle's total displacement determines the speed of the vehicle while actual total distant traveled is used to determine speed for all other circumstances.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:So, just to be clear, for purposes of assaulting, only the vehicle's total displacement determines the speed of the vehicle while actual total distant traveled is used to determine speed for all other circumstances.

Correct, with 1 other exception: SMF cares about displacement, and not actual distance traveled.

This is a debate that has been around a long time.

Movement is not clearly defined by the rule book at the distance between the starting and ending point except in the assault section, turbo-boost section, and some other special rules. It can debated all day long.

That being said, if you try to fly your skimmer around "in a circle" do not be surprised if a TO overrules you or your opponent considers you an arsehat.