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I've knocked a couple games out with the following 1,850-point Space Marines list:

Librarian Epistolary- Terminator armour, storm shield, Avenger, Might o/t Ancients

Terminator Squad (5)- Sgt w/ storm bolter and power weapon, 3 w/ storm bolters and power fists, 1 w/ heavy flamer and power fist

Land Raider(DT)- 2 twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked heavy bolter, extra armour

Terminator Squad (5)- Sgt. w/ storm bolter and power weapon, 3 w/ storm bolters and power fists, 1 w/ assault cannon and power fist

Tactical Squad (10)- Sgt. w/ bolt pistol and close combat weapon, 1 w/ flamer, 1 w/ heavy bolter, 7 w/ bolters, Rhino (no extras)

Scout Squad (5)- 4 w/ sniper rifles, 1 w/ heavy bolter

Assault Squad (5)- Sgt. w/ bolt pistol and power weapon, 4 w/ bolt pistols and close combat weapons

Land Raider- 2 twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked heavy bolter, extra armour

Devastator Squad (10)- Sgt. w/ signum, bolt pistol and close combat weapon, 2 w/ lascannons, 2 w/ plasma cannons, 5 w/ bolters

The Scouts have typically sat back at range and in cover but, other than making "Hail Mary!" late-game runs toward objectives in attempts to force a change in target priority, have done little else except provide an easy target. Nix 85 points...

The Devastators have performed admirably; with 2 Land Raiders full of Terminators waltzing toward my enemy the Devs have received little attention. However, the lascannons are the workhorses, and I'm not pleased with the overall performance of the plasma cannons; the "Gets Hot!" rule and my unnatural ability to roll an inordinate amount of 1s and hideously for deviation means I tend to risk more than my opponent when using them. Nix 50 points...

Surprisingly, the small size of the Assault Squad hasn't really been an issue. They typically hide behind one of the advancing Land Raiders, and I've been bringing them out as a "suicide squad" to assault exposed infantry or vehicles as the opportunities present themselves. However, I think I can better use the points somewhere else, so nix 115 points...

The assault cannon...
I'm not sure what to think of it. Four S6 AP4, Rending shots that can ID T3 multi-wound models that fail a save. Hm. Again, how many times am I going to roll a 6 and get that rend? About as often as the sniper rifles would pin an enemy unit? Not often enough. It's killed a few enemy infantry, punched through the front armour of a Chimera once, but not much else. Nix another 30 points...

Here are the swaps:

Might o/t Ancients is changing to Null Zone.

The Terminator from the first TDA Squad wielding the heavy flamer will have his power fist upgraded to a chainfist: +5 points.

The second Terminator Squad will become a Terminator Assault Squad, allowing me to designate the second Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport.

The first Tactical Squad is replacing it's heavy bolter with a lascannon and it's Rhino will get extra armour: +25 points.

I'm going to add a second Tactical Squad- Sgt. w/ bolt pistol and close combat weapon, 1 w/ flamer, 1 w/ lascannon, 7 w/bolters, Rhino w/ extra armour: +230 points.

The Devastator Squad will drop from a 10-man to a 9-man squad (-16 points) and will have a third lascannon: +35 points.

The new list is 1,849 points.

Why do you want a non-competitive list in a competitive environment?

Maybe he wants to have fun!

I play a noncompetitive list in a competitive environment because I choose to do so. By "competitive environment" I mean many people I pair up against across the table are regular attendees of GT events, or are generally ruthless and dour in equal measure while playing a game, throw tantrums when they lose and gloat like children when they win. I enjoy winning, but no more than I enjoy playing the game. I derive no enjoyment from causing tantrums. My intention is to be a better general (so that I may attend GT events with reasonable expectations rather than going for the "fun experience" only to get face wrecked so badly I end up "hating" tournament venues) and in doing so dispel many of the assumptions that "net lists" always win. I have a widely unpopular philosophy when it comes to building lists. I'm posting this list (and it's changes) here with the hopes I can receive CONSTRUCTIVE input, rather than disdainful criticisms. I know there are deficiencies in the list (such as low model/scoring unit count), and I'm not looking for what I can change to make the list more competitive, rather I'd like someone to look at the list for what it is (considering all standard deployments and missions) and offer their tactical insight.

EDIT: To be quite blunt, a derisive question such as that posed by the DCM only proves those with money to throw at an internet forum for "perks" enjoy a personal sense of superiority over the people whose points of view they cannot look at with objectivity. I politely ask that, in future, you consider others as much as yourself when responding/replying. Thank you.

Actually, it has nothing to do with money, nor derision I'd bet. I clicked this thread to get an answer to the exact same question. If you're going to stay on the Internet long, you might want to get a thicker skin. Or, if you don't think the fact that you're playing a non-competitive list in a competitive environment is relevant, why bother saying it? Did you honestly not expect that question?

commissarkurn wrote:I know there are deficiencies in the list (such as low model/scoring unit count), and I'm not looking for what I can change to make the list more competitive

Then you're posting in the wrong forum. You want to take a non-competitive list to achieve some sort of moral superiority against the 'tournament' players? Go for it, nobody cares, nobody needs to know.

It would help if you posted your actual list up, rather than giving us the first draft and then noting the intended changes below it. I don't care what your old list looks like, your changed it because it was terrible, so give us the actual version you're looking for feedback on rather than expecting people to do all the work for you.

I have no idea why you would take regular Terminators in a Land Raider. They don't assault as well as Assault Terminators, and by putting them in a Land Raider you can't shoot with them, which seems like a colossal waste of points to me.
Taking the Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transports shouldn't be an issue considering you have HS slots to spare.
I also have no idea why you would drop the Devastators down to 9 men and completely remove the ability to combat squad them.

Ultimately it's still a weak list that has no way of dealing with Mech, and relies on your opponent not knowing how to stop two Land Raiders.

wuestenfux wrote:Why do you want a non-competitive list in a competitive environment?

Haruko wrote:Maybe he wants to have fun!

I loled when I saw this, I play at tourney for the variety of players(and to have fun as well).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

commissarkurn wrote:I play a noncompetitive list in a competitive environment because I choose to do so. By "competitive environment" I mean many people I pair up against across the table are regular attendees of GT events, or are generally ruthless and dour in equal measure while playing a game, throw tantrums when they lose and gloat like children when they win. I enjoy winning, but no more than I enjoy playing the game. I derive no enjoyment from causing tantrums. My intention is to be a better general (so that I may attend GT events with reasonable expectations rather than going for the "fun experience" only to get face wrecked so badly I end up "hating" tournament venues) and in doing so dispel many of the assumptions that "net lists" always win. I have a widely unpopular philosophy when it comes to building lists. I'm posting this list (and it's changes) here with the hopes I can receive CONSTRUCTIVE input, rather than disdainful criticisms. I know there are deficiencies in the list (such as low model/scoring unit count), and I'm not looking for what I can change to make the list more competitive, rather I'd like someone to look at the list for what it is (considering all standard deployments and missions) and offer their tactical insight.

EDIT: To be quite blunt, a derisive question such as that posed by the DCM only proves those with money to throw at an internet forum for "perks" enjoy a personal sense of superiority over the people whose points of view they cannot look at with objectivity. I politely ask that, in future, you consider others as much as yourself when responding/replying. Thank you.

I like your attitude on having an uncompetitive list Its like the reason, why play the game.

I'm not sure what unfortunate situation you're in where you're playing against ruthless, dour, tantrum throwers all the time but almost none of the competitive players I know are like that.

I think he means like throne of skulls and ard' boys ( I have heard bad things from them types of tourneys).

EDIT: To be quite blunt, a derisive question such as that posed by the DCM only proves those with money to throw at an internet forum for "perks" enjoy a personal sense of superiority over the people whose points of view they cannot look at with objectivity. I politely ask that, in future, you consider others as much as yourself when responding/replying. Thank you.

Sorry, but I didn't want to be rude. It has reminded me on my friend Erik who always plays non-competitive lists in RTTs but usually fails badly. For instance, when he played BT I told him about the recent FAQ and the possibility to field 5x 5 Termies w/ 2 cylones. Its not a option for him. His lists look like being randomly configured.

There are more reasons to play in tournaments than just winning the tournament in the sense that you beat all of your opponents. Many tournaments have a "Best Painted" prize, or a "Best Sportsmanship" prize. Many have comp scores that require a balanced list, and depending on where you play there might even be a system for determining army composition using an abstract point system describing the "comp" of each unit and a maximum number of "comp" points each army can bring.

In the absence of those things though, I find myself agreeing with some of the other posters. If you are just looking to take a less than competitive force to a competitive event for fun, then why post it on these forums at all? Clearly you know the risks and the weak spots, as you said yourself, so what advice could we possibly give that could help you along in your goal?

If you want an objective look at your list with how it stacks up to competitive forces and how it will do in a tournament, I'd say it's bottom 5%. You have two scoring units, one of which could be taken out by a Deep Striking Land Speeder with a Heavy Flamer, the other of which is not overly durable itself. You have a unit of Devastators which is perhaps the single most over-priced unit in the codex, and you have a tiny unit of Assault Marines that will get eaten alive by ranged firepower before they get in combat. You do have two units of Terminators in Land Raiders, but rather than taking a single unit and combat-squadding them (to give you extra elite slots) you took them as separate units, and they are not Assault Terminators, they are standard Terminators which are much better at ranged combat than fighting up close. All of this is lead by a horribly overpriced Librarian with one good power, and one useless power. I think against any competent player fielding a balanced list, you will likely be tabled by turn 3 or 4.

The difference is you and your opponent. If you have this list fully painted and converted to be a beautiful display army, and are playing it because you enjoy using it, and your opponent is not a complete D-Bag, you could really quite enjoy losing every game in a big way while coming away with a best painted award. I know quite a few people around my area that are great players and are exceptionally fun to play against, win or lose, because they are good people and have excellent sportsmanship, but it sounds like your club might not be as good of an environment.

In light of that, taking this list to an event with people who might be dour and serious the entire time they are stomping you into the ground sounds like an exercise in masochism, so I ask, why take this list to a competitive event, especially if you know it's terrible?

Aldarionn wrote:There are more reasons to play in tournaments than just winning the tournament in the sense that you beat all of your opponents. Many tournaments have a "Best Painted" prize, or a "Best Sportsmanship" prize. Many have comp scores that require a balanced list, and depending on where you play there might even be a system for determining army composition using an abstract point system describing the "comp" of each unit and a maximum number of "comp" points each army can bring.

In the absence of those things though, I find myself agreeing with some of the other posters. If you are just looking to take a less than competitive force to a competitive event for fun, then why post it on these forums at all? Clearly you know the risks and the weak spots, as you said yourself, so what advice could we possibly give that could help you along in your goal?

If you want an objective look at your list with how it stacks up to competitive forces and how it will do in a tournament, I'd say it's bottom 5%. You have two scoring units, one of which could be taken out by a Deep Striking Land Speeder with a Heavy Flamer, the other of which is not overly durable itself. You have a unit of Devastators which is perhaps the single most over-priced unit in the codex, and you have a tiny unit of Assault Marines that will get eaten alive by ranged firepower before they get in combat. You do have two units of Terminators in Land Raiders, but rather than taking a single unit and combat-squadding them (to give you extra elite slots) you took them as separate units, and they are not Assault Terminators, they are standard Terminators which are much better at ranged combat than fighting up close. All of this is lead by a horribly overpriced Librarian with one good power, and one useless power. I think against any competent player fielding a balanced list, you will likely be tabled by turn 3 or 4.

The difference is you and your opponent. If you have this list fully painted and converted to be a beautiful display army, and are playing it because you enjoy using it, and your opponent is not a complete D-Bag, you could really quite enjoy losing every game in a big way while coming away with a best painted award. I know quite a few people around my area that are great players and are exceptionally fun to play against, win or lose, because they are good people and have excellent sportsmanship, but it sounds like your club might not be as good of an environment.

In light of that, taking this list to an event with people who might be dour and serious the entire time they are stomping you into the ground sounds like an exercise in masochism, so I ask, why take this list to a competitive event, especially if you know it's terrible?

Because he might like to post his force up, then link it up for his battle reports...

You can just post the list in the text of the report. That's what most people do.

Just saying, if you want to post a list for commentary on these forums and you know it's terrible, but won't accept commentary on it, then why post it at all? You know it's terrible, we know it's terrible, so we're all on the same page. It's basically like saying "Hey, this is the list I'm taking to a tournament. Don't want to change things but I thought you all should know....."

commissarkurn wrote:"net lists" always win.

Toss something. Run Vulkan. Win for days.

Aldarionn wrote:There are more reasons to play in tournaments than just winning the tournament in the sense that you beat all of your opponents. Many tournaments have a "Best Painted" prize, or a "Best Sportsmanship" prize. Many have comp scores that require a balanced list, and depending on where you play there might even be a system for determining army composition using an abstract point system describing the "comp" of each unit and a maximum number of "comp" points each army can bring.

In the absence of those things though, I find myself agreeing with some of the other posters. If you are just looking to take a less than competitive force to a competitive event for fun, then why post it on these forums at all? Clearly you know the risks and the weak spots, as you said yourself, so what advice could we possibly give that could help you along in your goal?

If you want an objective look at your list with how it stacks up to competitive forces and how it will do in a tournament, I'd say it's bottom 5%. You have two scoring units, one of which could be taken out by a Deep Striking Land Speeder with a Heavy Flamer, the other of which is not overly durable itself. You have a unit of Devastators which is perhaps the single most over-priced unit in the codex, and you have a tiny unit of Assault Marines that will get eaten alive by ranged firepower before they get in combat. You do have two units of Terminators in Land Raiders, but rather than taking a single unit and combat-squadding them (to give you extra elite slots) you took them as separate units, and they are not Assault Terminators, they are standard Terminators which are much better at ranged combat than fighting up close. All of this is lead by a horribly overpriced Librarian with one good power, and one useless power. I think against any competent player fielding a balanced list, you will likely be tabled by turn 3 or 4.

The difference is you and your opponent. If you have this list fully painted and converted to be a beautiful display army, and are playing it because you enjoy using it, and your opponent is not a complete D-Bag, you could really quite enjoy losing every game in a big way while coming away with a best painted award. I know quite a few people around my area that are great players and are exceptionally fun to play against, win or lose, because they are good people and have excellent sportsmanship, but it sounds like your club might not be as good of an environment.

In light of that, taking this list to an event with people who might be dour and serious the entire time they are stomping you into the ground sounds like an exercise in masochism, so I ask, why take this list to a competitive event, especially if you know it's terrible?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. OP - We do not really care what you play and your post comes off as "Hey look at this bad list and adore me for bringing it to a competetive enviroment!" Strikes as being attention-whorish.

Also, Vanguard take the#1 spot for being overpriced, Aldarionn