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What a crock of gak. I can't believe i read thousands of pages to get this bs!!!

aaaaaarrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhh

Problem? Everyone knows George gets "excited" every time he kills off a major character.

And I never liked that little fecker.

Sloppy way to end the book. Kill jon snow and announce that Stannis was dead as well. Martin needs to wrap up this bs quickly. He's not getting any younger.

I was a little miffed when he killed of Jon, but it's not like dead characters have no potential to come back.

Catelyn Stark?
Beric Dondarrion?
Aegon Targaryen?

I agree that he's more than likely dead but there's potential for him to have just been badly wounded.

Unggh...

Ive said it all along man. I fell in love with those books when I read the first one years ago..

The first was amazing, the second was great, the third was merely decent and I started thinking he should wrap things up.

A feast for crows was defintely worse than the other three, but like any fan, I pre ordered it on Amazon, proper fething ages ago.. I think it was advertised on the website in about 2007?

After a few years I got super pissed, cancelled the pre order, and thought "I hate this guy, and his last book wasn't that good anyway"

And now this!? feth it, I'm not going to bother reading it.

We don't know if - I'm with the Walrus on this.

Also, all we have for is the word of the Bastard. Why didn't his father write the letter, then? How do we know he didn't just

EDIT: For the great /Spoiler in the sky

mattryrm. You are making sense. The good characters are all gobshites--fundamentally so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS Mods why did you spoilerize my thread??? Is then subject title of the thread adequate or are people that fething stupid?

I am not certain Stannis is dead. I am pretty sure Jon is though. Trouble wih GRR Martin is that he thinks he is writing history instead of fantasy. Normally that is a good thing, but he takes it too far.

It is good to know that no-one is safe. It is bad to know that everyone is doomed.

I recommend you all read Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen instead.

My take.

1. Jon Snow.


2. Stannis.


3. Jaime & Brienne.


4. Barristans deal with Tatters.


5. Tyrion.

olympia wrote:
PS Mods why did you spoilerize my thread??? Is then subject title of the thread adequate or are people that fething stupid?

A fair move, spoiler tags allow items to be covered in seperation.

Fifty wrote:I recommend you all read Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen instead.

I started reading the series recently, and it's very good. Not as plot-crushing as Martin in the characters he kills off because it's hard to tell who the "good guy" is supposed to be. There are lots of intrigues, and while X might be a good guy in Plot 1, he's the bad guy in Plot 2, possibly for the same reasons he's the good guy in Plot 1. Fortunately, Erikson, unlike Martin, writes an end to the subplots as they occur while leaving the greater plot open. Unlike Martin where everything is a katamari hurtling towards some great unknown conclusion that may or may not ever happen.

However, be advised, you're thrown into the middle of a setting, which is only explained by continued reference to the glossary and maps.

I think Orlanth has it all laid out pretty well.



When I read the letter from Ramsay, I had assumed the entire thing was a lie. My feeling is that

Jamie's fate is really unknown at this point. I don't think GRRM would

Ser Barristan is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters. Dany pissed me off this last book

I also have found Tyrion back on my hate list. He had been doing a great job of redeeming himself, but this last book portrayed him simply as an donkey-cave.

Yeah, I'm sure Jon Snow is dead. At least as dead as was, and was, and was, and was, and was, and was, was, and was.

C'mon, guys, For every character that has died the true death, 3 other characters have had fake ones.

Ouze wrote:C'mon, guys, For every character that has died the true death, 3 other characters have had fake ones.

This is certainly true of the last book or two. But, the earlier books tended to have dead characters stay dead. We'll have to see how death fares in the rest of the series.

Also, really did die. He never came back from the dead. Someone was just pretending to be him.

The wheel of time turns, and what was dead rises again, or some such drawn out nonsense. It really is a shame, because I look forward to seeing which house finally ends up in control of the kingdoms- but it seems like every book makes less progress than the one before. At this rate I doubt he'll live to see the end of the series.

Grakmar wrote:

Ouze wrote:C'mon, guys, For every character that has died the true death, 3 other characters have had fake ones.

This is certainly true of the last book or two. But, the earlier books tended to have dead characters stay dead. We'll have to see how death fares in the rest of the series.

Also,

Spoiler:

The Hound

really did die. He never came back from the dead. Someone was just pretending to be him.

Yes, but also no. While it's true there was a pretender, But we'll call it a push.

The thing I like the best about the books is how they do a good job of showing peoples motivations and avoiding caricatures; none of the characters are evil, just because the're evil, Snidely Whiplash style, save Joffrey. Cersei and Jaime are great examples of this. They do evil things but I understand why they do them.

Ouze wrote:
Yes, but also no. While it's true there was a pretender,

Spoiler:

it's made very clear, in my opinion, that he's actually alive, and one of the monks.

But we'll call it a push.

Huh. I hadn't even put that together. But, you're right. Perhaps he isn't dead. But, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't someone claim they actually buried him? Who was that?

Ouze wrote:The thing I like the best about the books is how they do a good job of showing peoples motivations and avoiding caricatures; none of the characters are evil, just because the're evil, Snidely Whiplash style, save Joffrey. Cersei and Jaime are great examples of this. They do evil things but I understand why they do them.

I think even Joffrey wasn't pure evil. He was a spoiled brat and a jerk, but not pure evil.

If anything, I felt a little sorry for him. He was just a kid whom Cersei had done a horrible job of raising and Robert had basically ignored, if not outright hated. I'm sure that upbringing would have screwed anyone up.


By the way, was anyone else pissed off that

Ouze wrote:...none of the characters are evil, just because the're evil, Snidely Whiplash style, save Joffrey.

Even Joffrey comes off as being evil because he has naive notions of power and authority, which likely stem from his youth. Even Cersei's more overtly "evil" actions appear to be grounded in incompetence.


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Grakmar wrote:
By the way, was anyone else pissed off that

Spoiler:

Cersei is still alive? I was sure that she was going to be betrayed and killed on her penance walk.

I imagine there is a special fate planned for her...

Grakmar wrote:
When I read the letter from Ramsay, I had assumed the entire thing was a lie. My feeling is that

Spoiler:

the battle hasn't happened yet, and Stannis is still sitting outside.

I dont buy that. Ramsays letter shows that he knows too much about who was in the camp outside from the list of people he mentions he wants back.
The letter strongly implies:

Grakmar wrote:

Ouze wrote:The thing I like the best about the books is how they do a good job of showing peoples motivations and avoiding caricatures; none of the characters are evil, just because the're evil, Snidely Whiplash style, save Joffrey. Cersei and Jaime are great examples of this. They do evil things but I understand why they do them.

I think even Joffrey wasn't pure evil. He was a spoiled brat and a jerk, but not pure evil.

Only Joffrey, the Mountain and both Boltons are truly evil, counting only Westerosi characters. They are evil without need to be, everyone else was pushed into it to some degree, tyhey revel in it. Roose boltons calculating treachery, Ramsay Snow for being Ramsay Snow and the Mountain doing what he does. Joffrey cannot hide behind his mothers madness because Tommen turned out ok.
However the rogues gallery doesnt stop there, amny characters are evil, just with some reason for their evil and possibly even mitigating circumstances for their evil. This includes the many hardened soldiers who eventually join hardened bandit or rebel gangs, paranoids like Cersei, manipulators like Tywin, the Queen of Thorns and Old Walder Frey.

Its equally hard to pin down the actual good characters also. frankly the truely good characters are limited to Davos, Briene, Jon Snow, Samwell Tarly and Danaerys, in that order. With a nod to several minor characters who are good but also not in a power to be overly tempted to turn evil. Sansa is more cute than good as she is inactive far more the victim/prize than player.
I think Jaime is heading towards redemption, and would like to see him complete the journey.

My main problem at the moment is that Martin is being overly clever by making character shades of grey to avoid the fantasy good vs evil cliche and has overcompensated turning the series into grimdark instead. The balance is hard to get right and Martin did very well for the first three books of balancing different levels of plausible morality, but now it is ghoing to pot. In part he has the excuse that war hardens people, however Martin is overstepping this and slipping into a tired grimdark cliche.

I was extremely pissed that Jon got killed as well, because it was so damn STUPID. Why ignore Mellisandre AND Ghost? Gah. It was like that bit in a horror movie where you're shouting at the screen.

Even if he isn't dead, I'll be pissed because it's a cop out. And I get the feeling those raised from the dead are not really human anymore, and are part of the "problem" with the world. The ice and the fire both bring people back, and it ain't natural y'hear me! The other damned possibility is that Jon lives on as a little voice inside Ghost. But that would also suck.

That'd all be fine, except that the book seems to be building towards some hero arising and stopping the Others. I don't care who it is except for one thing. I absolutely DO NOT want it to be Dany. God I hate that character. Can an Author write their own Mary Sue? I hate every fecking minute of her chapters, and her vacuous hatred, and her limited understanding, and her god damned soft hearted badly thought out nonsense. At least Jon is able to make hard decisions.

But now the Seven Kingdoms are BONED. Like, super boned. Who is going to hold the Wall when the Others come? I have a horrible feeling the whole place is going to be over run, and we're going to see what happens when you put a fantasy kingdom in a blender.

And while that would be novel, it wouldn't make for good reading.

I also agree, GRRM has contracted Robert Jordan Syndrome, and is dragging his books out with too much extraneous crap. Who cares about the Dornish! No one! That's who!

*pant pant*
I was a hardcore fan of this series. But now I'm actually enjoying the newest Wheel of Time books more, and I never thought I'd say that.

Putting in another vote the The Book of the Fallen. Get past the first book, it's well worth it. Also, Name of the Wind is entertaining.

Hey, a Dornishman finished off The Mountain Mark 1, so the Dornish did something right.

Da Boss wrote:
Even if he isn't dead, I'll be pissed because it's a cop out. And I get the feeling those raised from the dead are not really human anymore, and are part of the "problem" with the world. The ice and the fire both bring people back, and it ain't natural y'hear me!

That'd all be fine, except that the book seems to be building towards some hero arising and stopping the Others.

I get the feeling that's part of the point. If I recall correctly The Prince That was Promised is the reincarnation of a strange, unidentified figure who comes out of nowhere to save the day, only to vanish; all under very supernatural circumstances. The major supernatural forces of ASoIF seem to ebb and flow in opposition to one another, occasionally coming into direct conflict, but never really hanging around too long after they do. I could definitely see Jon fitting into that mold after being resurrected.

Da Boss wrote:
I have a horrible feeling the whole place is going to be over run, and we're going to see what happens when you put a fantasy kingdom in a blender.

And while that would be novel, it wouldn't make for good reading.

Based on what was said about the Time of Legends, or whatever its called, that's what happened last time a "real" winter came, and everything came out the other side very different.

Da Boss wrote:

But now the Seven Kingdoms are BONED. Like, super boned.

While it is intended as conflict and resolution Martin is in effect heading towards the all-factions-are-in-the-crapper meme, with no plot remaining thoroughly unbroken. Here is one I can sniff brewing:

Da Boss wrote:
Who is going to hold the Wall when the Others come? I have a horrible feeling the whole place is going to be over run, and we're going to see what happens when you put a fantasy kingdom in a blender.

I am not sure, even if some idiot in the Nights Watch turned and said all 'wildlings must die' all he would achieve is the annihilation of the watch.

Da Boss wrote:I also agree, GRRM has contracted Robert Jordan Syndrome, and is dragging his books out with too much extraneous crap. Who cares about the Dornish! No one! That's who!

I agree that when GRRM first started having chapters about Dorne, I really didn't care about them. But, as the series has progressed, it seems like they're going to be a major factor in which faction wins the war.

The only forces that still have their armies mostly intact are Dorne and the Eyrie. So, I'd guess that the entire struggle will come down to Doran Martell vs Littlefinger.

That list of un-dead characters, Ouze...+1

Snow can't be dead, as the only way this series can neatly wrap up is with him and Danaerys hooking up and restoring the Iron Throne to a Targaryen line.

BTW, GRRM stated that we would learn more about Jon's parentage in this book, but I do not seem to recall doing so???

Eldanar wrote:That list of un-dead characters, Ouze...+1

Snow can't be dead, as the only way this series can neatly wrap up is with him and Danaerys hooking up and restoring the Iron Throne to a Targaryen line.

BTW, GRRM stated that we would learn more about Jon's parentage in this book, but I do not seem to recall doing so???

When Bran was viewing things through the heart tree at Winterfell, there was a scene with Ned talking about a baby. I interpreted that as strongly indicating that Jon is NOT Ned's son.

Eldanar wrote:

BTW, GRRM stated that we would learn more about Jon's parentage in this book, but I do not seem to recall doing so???

Davos learns something of this after he visits a castle on the island he is marooned on.

@Ouze. Ser Gregor is obviously evil. I've read what happens in 4 and 5, but I've only read 1-3 atm. I'd say Ser Gregor and Joffrey are the only out and out evil characters that exist so far.

Yeah, that's been my theory since Bran's dream and Ned's memories in Book 1.

I really don't want Dany and Jon to hook up. Urgh. She's a mentaller.

Oh, and I agree that the Dornish are in a bloody good position. The Prince of Dorne is a canny bastard. But did we have to drag it out that much to get to that? We came at it from three other perspectives and then had him actually say it in this book. Bleh.

Da Boss wrote:
I really don't want Dany and Jon to hook up. Urgh. She's a mentaller.

As proven given the correct husband Dany will be a docile housewife who happens to bring along dragons, khalasar, an elite legion and a claim to the Iron Throne. Not a bad combo.
Jon Snow would sort her out.

Da Boss wrote:
Oh, and I agree that the Dornish are in a bloody good position. The Prince of Dorne is a canny bastard. But did we have to drag it out that much to get to that? We came at it from three other perspectives and then had him actually say it in this book. Bleh.

Thats the advantage of being late into a bloody war. The Vale also has that advantage, both are also easily defendable. If they dont win they will likely have at a minimum a strong presence at the negotiating table.

Amaya wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

That is the going rumour as well that I thought. I forgot about the dream and Davos. I guess it is time for a re-read, to pick up on things I missed...