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Hey all. I haven't played fantasy since 6th edition.

Back then, people had small units of fast cavalry for negating rank bonuses, various units of 10, 12, 16, 20, sometimes even 25 infantry all for various purposes, flyers running all over the place blocking marches, warmachines, and a variety of levels of magic.


Now it seems like EVERYONE has the same blocks of 40 infantry, and EVERYONE has the same one level 4 wizard, because additional wizards hardly help at all. I like fantasy a lot, but what happened to the diversity? Are units of less than 40 even a thing any more?

I would say unit sizes are bigger generally but that doesn't mean diversity is dead. Cavalry units are still viable, but you would want them to have at least a full rank for negating bonuses.

One level four is a start point, but since if you fail to dispel or cast your level four is done for the magic phase additional wizards help a lot. Especially for armies casting lots of low casting value spells.

The big 40-strong units are extremely vulnerable to the new magic in the game. Dwellers Below, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades and Fire Storm all wreck those massive blocks.

War machines are certainly a much bigger part of the game, and they also wreck those huge blocks.

But at the same time, big units of infantry make an army seem like an army to me. I felt the last edition didn't play up infantry enough.


For my part, I run two 40-strong Skeleton Units and a 30-strong Grave Guard unit. But I also use a Wraith unit and either a 12-strong Black Knight unit or a Corpse Cart and bring 3-4 Wizards for redundancy when the level four fails.

I find the game more fun than ever.

Elites can run in smaller numbers but most units now run in blocks of 40+ and cheap units can go up yo 100 models.

So do you basically just reform until you have slightly more ranks than them and say "haha stubborn" or what?

Are there ways to deal with these units other than magic and warmachines? Does flanking do anything worthwhile at all any more, or is it just a "march all your dudes into each other and hope you can pit of shades his huge block better than he does to you"

As much as it bums me out to say your nealry on the moeny in regards to magic being the cure for big blocks of troops.

However all units became alot more killy in 8th an extra rank to fight plus all the buff spelss means that most units can be turned into fanatical killing machines.

Combats last a lot longer now dont expect to break thru the enemy line in 1 round of combat.

Light cav if its cheap enuff to take in biggish units 12-15 can be used to remove a enemys block of tropps rank bonus but not its steadfast.

Dark elves still kinda do MSU ok since they rely on hydras to do the killing.

ph34r wrote:Are there ways to deal with these units other than magic and warmachines? Does flanking do anything worthwhile at all any more, or is it just a "march all your dudes into each other and hope you can pit of shades his huge block better than he does to you"

Flanking is certainly worthwhile but you need to do it with a unit with a full rank to negate their ranks and hopefully to kill enough to make sure your big block has more ranks, thus why bigger units of cavalry are desirable.

The ideal situation being to engage his big block with one of your big blocks, then hit it in the flank with a big cavalry unit, kill enough of his models to give yourself more ranks, make him need double 1's to pass his break test and then run him down with your swiftstriding cavalry.

At that point you can probably roll up his entire line.

So flanking and other shenanigans are viable as long as your giant block has more ranks than their giant block?

ph34r wrote:So flanking and other shenanigans are viable as long as your giant block has more ranks than their giant block?

yup

Think the advice your being sold is a little off. 8th is still all about synergy and solid tactics. People complain about steadfast rules and magic but they are just another added tactic to enhance the game. You don't want dwellers to ruin your day keep 12 inches away with low strength troop, you are facing superior numbers then support your charges with augments or flank charges. 8th is a very good version.

Pob82 wrote:Think the advice your being sold is a little off. 8th is still all about synergy and solid tactics. People complain about steadfast rules and magic but they are just another added tactic to enhance the game. You don't want dwellers to ruin your day keep 12 inches away with low strength troop, you are facing superior numbers then support your charges with augments or flank charges. 8th is a very good version.

Because its far to easy to just throw all your power dice at dwellers cast the boosted 24" range version and loose a unit anyways.

I like alot of the changes in 8th but the magic is now rubbish and has little or no skill involved. Also the changes made to redirecting etc and giving everyone a million ways to reform took a lot of the skil land planning out of the movement phase. I do however like the random charge ranges and almost every other change I just cant stand that WHFB strongest and most involved phase ie he movemnet phase become a case of herp derp advance herp derp charge. Flanking is very sitional now alot of the time the beniftis it bring to a combat is outwieghed/negated by the fact you have now provided me with some more free wounds and frontage to hit.

I disagree PoB - it is a fun game, but it is quite heavily reliant on magic as well as 10 wide blocks of troops. Once a brick hits it tends to be stuck until they slowly grind away

I still think think your over simplifying things. I personally think the fact that magic and unit sizes can cause a headache makes the strategic side of the game more enjoyable.

Nothing more fun then face smashing a teclis build.

Fantasy in 8th is much more a 'rock paper scissors' game than in the past, high powered magic (talking specifically about the mega spells) counters big blocks which counter MSU which counters high powered magic. In that sense the strategic side of the game is basically dead, because if you run into the counter for your style of army you are seriously disadvantaged. There is actually very little incentive to bring a 'balanced' army imo, if you do you tend to get overrun by the more extreme builds, which at least have a 2/3 chance of getting a good match up. The tactical side of the game is also somewhat diminished because the RNG is always waiting ready to turn the game on its head, you don't even have to roll that well (say they get Dwellers off twice with IF over two turns, which is not hard at all) and half your army dies and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Randomness is fine, but 8th has a few places which would be nice if they were scaled back a tad.

Not saying that 8th is a bad edition, its still great fun as a casual game with mates and scales pretty well (don't play at 3000pts because its too easy to abuse, but 4000pts+ you get some epic games) but purely from a competitive standpoint it doesn't measure up to 40k, Warmachine or FoW.

I run my troops in 50's whenever I can (empire state troops).

There are more answers for large blocks than just mortaring them or purple-sunning/dwelling them, although that stuff helps.

Your high-end elite troops like black guard, khorne halberds, swordmasters, blood knights, and so on (roughly, s4+ and more than a2+, preferrably with something that modifies to-hit favorably) can chew up a very disgusting number of t3 state troopers/clanrats/elf spears per turn. I have lost a 50-man halberd horde to 27 black guard with a dreadlord (they won every single combat, including when only 4 of them remained).

Also, these things are very susceptible to being tar pitted by your steam tanks, dark elf dreadlords with kaleth and crown. Lastly, they will generally fail to kill any kind of decent monster until it's too late (stegadon, hpa, hydra, all of which typically cost less than 50 infantry models if they're not skaven slaves).

I like big infantry blocks. They're good. They're not unbeatable.

Isn't that an illegal Black Guard unit? I thought they had a max size of 20?

Yes it is. Their unit size is 5-20 as seen here http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440016a&prodId=prod1490016&rootCatGameStyle=

Yeah, this is why I've never been interested much in fantasy.

If I wanted massive blocks, I'd play goblins or skaven.

This is why I'm starting ogres, although I still don't see them being able to stand up to large blocks.

There's a bit more complexity here than people are saying. You either get a big 10-wide horde unit, or you get that same unit 5 wide and stacked deep for reliable steadfast. Not many 10-wide units will be reliably steadfast for very long. A 25 or 30 strong bus of high quality infantry (or equivalent infantry with CR support from chariots, cavalry, characters, whatever) can punch right through a 10x4 horde, because the horde will have less ranks, and not that many more attacks.

To be perfectly frank, I just do not understand the idea of complaining that large blocks of infantry are common on the battlefield. They should be common, they were the fundamental building blocks of armed forces until the advent of accurate gunpowder weapons.

Smaller infantry units still definitely have their place, as do cavalry, monsters and all the rest, but the core of the game is about large blocks of infantry, and using other assets to tip combats between large blocks on infantry in your favour.

Its only worth hording units if the said unit has access to cheap high strength attacks ie maras with great weapons.

Another row of dinky strength 3 attacks dose not mean gak.

Jubear wrote:Its only worth hording units if the said unit has access to cheap high strength attacks ie maras with great weapons.

Another row of dinky strength 3 attacks dose not mean gak.

This is very important imo. Cheap infantry like skaven slaves are much more effective in bus formation and if you think you're clever by hoarding elven spearmen, you should probably rethink your strategy

sebster wrote:To be perfectly frank, I just do not understand the idea of complaining that large blocks of infantry are common on the battlefield. They should be common, they were the fundamental building blocks of armed forces until the advent of accurate gunpowder weapons.

Smaller infantry units still definitely have their place, as do cavalry, monsters and all the rest, but the core of the game is about large blocks of infantry, and using other assets to tip combats between large blocks on infantry in your favour.

It just seems like they might remove a lot of the old maneuvering skill.

ph34r wrote:

sebster wrote:To be perfectly frank, I just do not understand the idea of complaining that large blocks of infantry are common on the battlefield. They should be common, they were the fundamental building blocks of armed forces until the advent of accurate gunpowder weapons.

Smaller infantry units still definitely have their place, as do cavalry, monsters and all the rest, but the core of the game is about large blocks of infantry, and using other assets to tip combats between large blocks on infantry in your favour.

It just seems like they might remove a lot of the old maneuvering skill.

I wouldn't say that. The rules give you a number of different scenarios where your deployment is going to be abnormal and the rules call for a lot of terrain. Unless you're ignoring the rulebook, playing pitched battle and putting all the terrain on the edges there's a lot of maneuvering going about.

ph34r wrote:It just seems like they might remove a lot of the old maneuvering skill.

To a small extent it has. Random charge distances have also removed a bit of the subtleties of maneuver as well.

But more than anything, it's given a whole new reason to maneuver. It used to be that it didn't matter all that much how well you positioned yourself, that big block of Chaos Knights was going to much straight through your infantry block. It now becomes a case of picking your battles carefully, and lining up the right combats, and timing your flanking charges properly.

Jubear wrote:Its only worth hording units if the said unit has access to cheap high strength attacks ie maras with great weapons.

Another row of dinky strength 3 attacks dose not mean gak.

however, those Str3 attacks can wound anything on 6s now.

Str3 is also a reliable way fo killing your opponent's big block.


2 large blocks of infantry slam into each other and begin grinding away, supported by friendly magic. Elite units slam into their flanks to try and tip the balance, its all quite interesting.

Grey Templar wrote:

Jubear wrote:Its only worth hording units if the said unit has access to cheap high strength attacks ie maras with great weapons.

Another row of dinky strength 3 attacks dose not mean gak.

however, those Str3 attacks can wound anything on 6s now.

Str3 is also a reliable way fo killing your opponent's big block.


2 large blocks of infantry slam into each other and begin grinding away, supported by friendly magic. Elite units slam into their flanks to try and tip the balance, its all quite interesting.

Yeah so many times my big units have been tied up against a horded enemy unit and I have thought to my self "damn what I really need now is another 5 strength 3 attacks that will totally swing things in my favor" /sarcasm

Yes everything wounds on 6 now and that will be totally relevant to the argument when fighting T6 rank and file oh wait.....there aint no T6 rank and file (unbuffed)

I think that the people saying that slamming giant blocks into each other is unfun and big spells are unbalanced have fair points.
Horde isn't really that great for most units though- you want great weapons to get the best use out of it, I reckon.

Here's the thing, large infantry blocks give a big advantage against cavalry, magic and to some extent war machines give a big advantage against large blocks, and cavalry does a good job against war machines, and tilts combat in its favor when combined with infantry.

There is a hard counter to everything in the game. When giant deathstar infantry blocks seem invincible, big magic spells can cripple them. When brutal cav deathstars seem invincible, massive columns of steadfast troops can hold them all game. When gunlines or massed magic seems invincible, distributed power helps you soak the damage till you get there. If you don't want to play a rock-paper-scissors game, bring rock, paper, and scissors. That's not to say you can't still get a bad matchup, but it hedges your bets and gives you more tools to fight a broader variety of armies.

Red_Zeke wrote:Isn't that an illegal Black Guard unit? I thought they had a max size of 20?

Oh my. You're right. I guess he didn't know that, or something. I certainly didn't until today.

Things in 8th do tend to make people lean towards hordes (woo extra attack), but you honestly don't NEED them. I play VC and i usually run 3 hordes but that's cause i'm dead and have less unit choices than some armies. There are times though when I play games where i break up my Core Troop Hordes into 4x 20 man units. In those games things end up working just as well as when i run two hordes if not better. It all depends on you as the General, what army you have, and which army you are trying to destroy.