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I was thinking with GW coming down hard on its non-official Third Party developers, maybe it's time for a change of Tack.

If they were to create a unified Umbrella for third party developers, they could put their Stamp on things and help distribute the items and control the quality of items. George Lucas has done a very good job (on the whole) at controlling his IP but also allowing it a wide degree of saturation in many different media's but he has also retained a tight control on the Quality of items produce in his Star Wars Universe.

Wouldn't it be great if GW could concentrate on producing Core Ranges and Third Parties like CHapterhouse can expand the ranges and add in small pieces which are not commercially viable to produce via mass production. It would reduce their workload on expanding ranges but still retain a veto on quality or product.

Furthermore when are they going to start renting cheaper premises, like the 1st floor or basement rather than very, very expensive premises on the high street. Slater Menswear pay a hell of a lot less for alot more retail space by not having groundfloor premises (either 1st Floor or Basement) on high streets and they have huge nice stores...

Frankly, I think this is a horrible idea.

much of the Expanded Universe Star Wars fluff is absolute garbage in my opinion. Not for all the same reasons. Some is badly written, some is horrible fluff(like Goto, who is a good writer but has no respect for the fluff), and most of it has Super Weapons popping up right and left like old Happy Meal toys in a kindergarten.


While GW should relax some of their policies, they should be no means do what Lucas Arts did. Otherwise, we may have lost Primarchs make Cameo appearences and then disappear or have main characters like Creed or Calgar die.

By the (admittedly low) standards of franchise fiction (indeed by the low standards of modern genre fiction) Games Workshop's fiction has been of remarkably high quality - In my opinion this is not unconnected to their choice to do their writing in-house and keep very strict control over their fictional worlds.

The Star Wars Expanded Universe, on the other hand, is pretty-much a byword for terrible, terrible spin-off novels and comics, in which every story is a three-volume epic in which a resurrected/cloned/pretender Emperor tries to take over the galaxy with a new superweapon - and yet somehow also reads like generic sci-fi without even the dubious charm of the films.

A terrible, terrible idea. Even worse than that one about the Grey Knights actually being the Adeptus Custodes who were actually one or both of the missing legions. Which, come to think of it, is probably about the standard of plotting we'd get from Tom Veitch or (shudder) Kevin J. Anderson.

The problem with getting basements for stores and the like is a severe lack of storefront. Nobody can see what's inside, and therefore you won't have people wandering in and getting hooked; only people who know where the store is would get any traffic. The reason there was a GW on every high street in the UK was because boys would walk by it on the way home from school, stop in and get hooked.

I don't like the idea of GW letting other companies make their bits. In my opinion, much of Chapterhouse's product is lacking in quality while better companies like Scibor don't gel 100% with GW's designs. I like Scibor and MaxMini stuff, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't quite look the same.

As for "expanded universe" fiction, we don't need a book where some Imperial admiral finds the indestructible right hand of Horus and then forges his own empire out of it.

yeah, we would have renagades running around with the Other Talon of Horus, the Emperor's Sword, and Fulgrim's Codpiece. all eventually would be killed, and the relic weapon destroyed, in some rediclous fashion of course. Calgar would die due to a severe case of having a Moon dropped on his head.

I'd have to agree, the Star Wars model is a rotten idea...

The next thing you know we'll have badly written novels, GW ripping-off hollywood movies, AND god forbid, idiot savant orangutan 'MacGyvers' running around inadvertantly helping psychic humans with their... *sigh* ...ah hell.

I did qualify my disdain with the words 'by the low standards of franchise fiction'. When I want to read good science fiction novels, I've got China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer and Margaret Attwood to whom to turn. Nevertheless, since I still need something to read on the train to work, I remain glad that Games Workshop can, with surprising reliability, provide me with well-crafted and literate (if not literary) pulp adventure - not something I could obtain from Lucasfilm (or whoever their franchisees are).

English Assassin wrote:I did qualify my disdain with the words 'by the low standards of franchise fiction'. When I want to read good science fiction novels, I've got China Mieville, Jeff Vandermeer and Margaret Attwood to whom to turn. Nevertheless, since I still need something to read on the train to work, I remain glad that Games Workshop can, with surprising reliability, provide me with well-crafted and literate (if not literary) pulp adventure - not something I could obtain from Lucasfilm (or whoever their franchisees are).

Lol, I sympathize. While I don't have to take the train, I do have a 70 minute commute just to sit and stare at my computer, sketch and model 3d material which takes a bit to render. I prefer 'hard' science fiction, but the Horus Heresy has saved my sanity on such occasions. Much of the other BL books are too teen angst or military-pulp ridden for my taste.

Grey Templar, please do not compare Calgar to Chewie.

While I enjoy pulp sci-fi and bad Anime shows as much as the next guy, I do appreciate that the BL has a fairly high standard of quality.



now you may wave Goto books in my face to counter my point. yeah, they were bad, but the BL has evicted Goto from writing any new books. He basically slipped in before they started needing quality control.

if anything, Goto made sure there was quality control on BL material. it was such a travesty that GW noticed. otherwise, we might have had our other Authors slide down the slippery slope of declining novel quality.

mwnciboo wrote:If they were to create a unified Umbrella for third party developers, they could put their Stamp on things and help distribute the items and control the quality of items. George Lucas has done a very good job (on the whole) at controlling his IP but also allowing it a wide degree of saturation in many different media's but he has also retained a tight control on the Quality of items produce in his Star Wars Universe.

The difference between Lucasarts' model and what you're proposing is that what the various licenced companies produce for Star Wars is from a range of different markets depending on their specific licence. One company produces boardgames. One company produces Action Figures. One companyt produces a miniatures game.

The company producing action figures can't choose to 'fill the gaps' in the miniatures games range, because their icence doesn't let them make miniatures.


By contrast, the idea of GW focusing on core ranges and licencing out to third parties all for different minatures or parts... that would be a logistical nightmare. Businesses would only buy into that sort of agreement if they were guaranteed some sort of exclusivity. So if one of them, for example, produces a pre-Heresy jump pack, nobody else would be able to. Otherwise, they would all just be stepping on each others' toes.

And that's also exactly why GW would never do it. They have a third party producing add-ons, in the form of Forgeworld. Endorsing other companies would just limit what they could choose to release through Forgeworld, and impact on their own design plans.

It's the sort of idea that seems like a good thing, but in practice just wouldn't work.

Well, I don't care which model they follow as long as I can get a talking mini-wookie 'nub-nub' or a baby Squig for my niece. Preferably, just in time for the Christmas holiday...

They should just relower their prices and theyd be a helluva lot better off.

As of 2003 I had read every adult SW EU paperback available. I haven't kept up with everything released since then. Outside of the Thrawn Trilogy, there really isn't much in the EU that is really good. Most of it is crap and pretty much everything released prior to Episode 2 contradicts canon material to the point where it is unreadable.

Every other story involves some new galactic threat or some uber super weapon BS. At my last count they've had three alien races attempt to invade the post RotJ galaxy, multiple new Sith Lords, multiple attempts to revitalize the Empire, more super weapons than I dare count, and more Mary Sue Jedi/Bounty Hunter characters than all of Marvel and DC combined. The EU has become a complete joke. Thank god for KotOR.

Warhammer 40k, despite its flaws, has a much stronger universe and more coherent story than the Star Wars EU.

I am a SW fan so this is the best one for me to unload on, sorry English Assassin, nothing personal.

English Assassin wrote:By the (admittedly low) standards of franchise fiction (indeed by the low standards of modern genre fiction) Games Workshop's fiction has been of remarkably high quality - In my opinion this is not unconnected to their choice to do their writing in-house and keep very strict control over their fictional worlds.

I've read from both the BL and from the DelRay/Bantam/RandomHouse line of SW fiction and both have ups and downs.

English Assassin wrote:The Star Wars Expanded Universe, on the other hand, is pretty-much a byword for terrible, terrible spin-off novels and comics, in which every story is a three-volume epic in which a resurrected/cloned/pretender Emperor tries to take over the galaxy with a new superweapon - and yet somehow also reads like generic sci-fi without even the dubious charm of the films.

Really? If it was so bad then why are they still making Books/Comics/Games from all the various era's in the SWU? I'm going to give you this. In the mid 90's a lot of what you said is true, but you must not have read the X-Wing novels/comics from Mike Stackpole, he rivals a few of the BL authors in terms of getting into the universe from the grunt soldiers perspective. But the SW EU was really brand new at the time. When I look at the stuff from the 90's Zahns stuff was always the best and still is some 20 plus years later.

I think the point has to be conceded here that both universes have highs and lows in the quality. But SW has just so much more volume that it skews the viewpoint just a bit I think.

English Assassin wrote:A terrible, terrible idea. Even worse than that one about the Grey Knights actually being the Adeptus Custodes who were actually one or both of the missing legions. Which, come to think of it, is probably about the standard of plotting we'd get from Tom Veitch or (shudder) Kevin J. Anderson.

I've meet Kevin J. Anderson he lives not too far from me and he's a fun guy and some people like his work or else he'd be doing something else these days. However his SW work was not his best, except for the Old Republic stuff he did was good. After all if not for him writing that, the KOTOR games would never be, and plenty of folks think the first one of those was the best RPG X-Box ever had. I'd put it in the top 5 at least.

The same can be said for the video games for SW. For ever Force Unleashed 1 there is a Force Unleashed 2, or a pilot simulator that is amazing to a Rebel Assault that is just an assault on the sense of good taste. I think with SW it's a issue with quantity. I've played some good SW games and I've played some bad SW games.

Heck compare the recent WOTC SW minatures game and compare it to the WEG minatures game and the one from WOTC is so much better by a hge margin, but then BFG from GW is a better space combat game than the Starship battles that WOTC made, so...

I think your points can go both ways.

You didn't stop to consider the fact that they might be churning out tons of crap because Star Wars has a huge market and people will gladly buy anything that has "Star Wars" slapped on it?

also, lots of the Star Wars material is also marketed to kinds under the age of 16. most of whom wouldn't give a flying feth about how good the writing is. they just want to hear how awsome the Jedi are or how Obi-wan actually did almost the same thing Anakan did(fell in love and left the Jedi order. only came back when she died )


The BL books are mostly marketed to older readers as the content would most certaintly be entering R rated territory, partially because of the setting. Older readers want properly written books.

Amaya wrote:As of 2003 I had read every adult SW EU paperback available. I haven't kept up with everything released since then. Outside of the Thrawn Trilogy, there really isn't much in the EU that is really good. Most of it is crap and pretty much everything released prior to Episode 2 contradicts canon material to the point where it is unreadable.

I smell a typical Hate all SW but the OT because of too much fanboyism here. I've seen enough of it in my time to see it real quick. You woudln't have read the 100+ books in that span if you weren't. And you probaly were unhappy that it wasn't the way you wanted it to be and so...blah blah blah I hate this I hate that...but you still emmersed yourself in it for how long?

Amaya wrote:Every other story involves some new galactic threat or some uber super weapon BS. At my last count they've had three alien races attempt to invade the post RotJ galaxy, multiple new Sith Lords, multiple attempts to revitalize the Empire, more super weapons than I dare count, and more Mary Sue Jedi/Bounty Hunter characters than all of Marvel and DC combined. The EU has become a complete joke. Thank god for KotOR.

OF course it's a galactic threat, but guess what so is 40K, but they often tell the story on a planetary scale for the most where as SW trys to be much more fanciful. There are no super weapons in 40k, really? Only 1 invading army from outside the Galaxy, that's a 20 set book line story arc that they have tried to bury ever since. Sith Lords and Chaos Daemon princes both seem to be dime a dozen between the two sets of stories. The purpose of the great crusades were in an attempt to revitalize an Empire (IoM), Also does the IoM fights for survival but also for their empire, hum seems to run about the same vein here too. Why does the emperor sits on a golden throne of Terra? in SW pick your spot in the history and the emperor can be dead, he can be in diapers or he may be a millennium from birth. How many times has Calgar called down Exterminatus on some planet, not to mention the Inquisition doing the same? Rogue Traders, inquisitors, Demigod Space Marines, Phsykers of all kinds of many races, seem to fit the last one too.

Amaya wrote:Warhammer 40k, despite its flaws, has a much stronger universe and more coherent story than the Star Wars EU.

I think upon comparison they are awfully similar, one just sells itself as a happier place to be than the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:You didn't stop to consider the fact that they might be churning out tons of crap because Star Wars has a huge market and people will gladly buy anything that has "Star Wars" slapped on it?

I mentioned it, sort of.

So reading a handful of Star Wars books over 5-6 years means you're immersed in it?
I don't read as much as I used to, but when I was younger I would read 3-4 books a week. (Amazing what happens when you don't grow up in front of a Nintendo).

The simple fact is the majority of the Star Wars EU books are complete and utter crap. I knew that even as I read them, but I read them because I was bored and because I could wolf them down in an afternoon if I was so compelled.

They weren't bad because 'things I wanted to happened didn't happen'. I have no vested emotional interest. Even when I started reading those books I considered the universe as a whole subpar to Babylon 5 and to an extent even DS9.

The EU suffers terribly from poor writing, poor characterization, lack of innovation, constant recycling of ideas, excessive use of the 4-20 ABY period, and inconsistency.

As I said before the Thrawn Trilogy was good, some of the collected stories were decent (Tales of ....), I liked The Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy (even though it's not particularly good), the X-Wing series had some highlights, I, Jedi was okay (as opposed to the god awful Jedi Academy trilogy), and the Hand of Thrawn books were decent.


But as far as overcrowding the timeline goes...in something like a 12 year span we have:

Raptor men threaten to take over the galaxy
Spats with the various Imperial Remnants
Admiral Thrawn threatening to take over the galaxy
1 year later Palpatine is resurrected! AMG
AMG He rezzes again!
lulz Darksaber
lulz Jedi Academy Trilogy (aka another SUPERWEAPON)
The creepy guys with dew claws threaten to take over the galaxy

And that's not including stuff from video games which includes at least Desann turning a bunch of 'normals' into Jedi and an attempt at resurrecting Ragnos.


At least 40k unfolds at a believable pace. The Star Wars EU is like a really poorly written comic book series at this point...oh wait...isn't that what legacy is?

I take alot of your points on the Quality of SW (mainly i think because it has bloated beyond the realms of resonablness).

On the subject of third Party exclusivity, well it seems to work rather well for Forge World doesn't it? If GW were to say "Chapterhouse, you can be responsible for all types of Official sculpted SM Pauldrons, they must be submitted to us for approval before release and must conform to the following standards of Packaging and labelling".

The argument of Logistics problems, I don't buy into at all. Plenty of manufacturers produce items for Retail sale, produced on behalf of other Corporations. Some Companies have others create their products for them and they simply market them. Samsung design the Smart Phone, but are in bed with Google for the Android OS, there are literally Millions of examples where companies work together and the consumer is none the wiser.

GW should be aiming for Mono-Dominance of the market - The number 1 retailer of Wargames. To do this they need to build on their Warhammer franchises and get more dynamic specialist games. The world is dynamic and always moving, they are getting stuck in a rut of not pushing the boundaries. Nintendo almost did this after the Game Cube crap, but then went radical, and despite the Wii not being that capable it succeeded, over much more capable opposition. They are far too entrenched in their games and need to look at alternative gaming systems and ways of playing. I recently played Wings of War and absolutely loved it, (Playing cards for movement! Brilliant and fast).

On the subject of high street stores, GW Retail operation is killing them. I don't think that by keeping stores going at massive expense solely to keep getting more people into the Hobby is a valid argument. The imminent 40k MMO, Space Marine and Dawn of War Games have (or will) do more for the hobby than 120 seriously expensive stores. FLGS are killing them, they should cut off the limb before it kills them. The Price hikes are all related to this.

I think their stores are a good frontage.



But they should go back to their earlier model of carrying other companies products.

Even if they started carrying board games or some other fantesy games on the side they could stay in business.



If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times, they need to have sales. "Army of the Month" sales where everything from that particular faction is 20% off. Have all new releases be 30% off for the first month and then go up to normal cost. Have a "Build a Battleforce" option on their website(kinda like the Lego system where you build your own custom set, but instead you customise a Battalion. maybe a minimum of 3 units and have the total value of the chosen boxs determine the savings. $100 gets you 10%, 200 gets you 20%....)

I like some of your points, you would lose margin by discounting but then hopefully make some back. They should drop paints, Vallejo and Army Painter are kicking them, GW do good Washes and Metallics everything else is available elsewhere for cheaper.

If they sacraficed some stores they could go on a media blitz campaign and if well handled would do alot more for their business. Your argument is based around the "Build it and they will come" model which is a field of dreams (pun intended).

And what do you think a "media blitz campaign" would do?

"MODELS! MODELS! MODELS!"--yes, every child in the world will be beating down their doors to get at it.

the GW stores I have been to in the LA area seem to do ok as far as business goes.


The prices certaintly do drive a few people off. more deals would improve business.

The important thing is whether or not there would be a Warhammer 40k Imperial Holiday Special, starring the Emperor's lost son, Lumpicus.

Brother SRM wrote:The important thing is whether or not there would be a Warhammer 40k Imperial Holiday Special, starring the Emperor's lost son, Lumpicus.

Touche!!

Edited for politeness

I think that in a small sense, the "Lucas Model" is almost exactly what GW has done.

The main company, GW makes most miniatures. They have a licensed company making different models in Forge World. They have a "separate" company called BL for novels, and Boom! for their comics/ graphic novels.

More recently, they have allowed THQ and Relic more freedom, within the "strict" confines of the IP to create video games, and these have been fairly successful. The problem is though, that their WHFB IP has not gone to THQ and Relic, and instead went to EA for Warhammer Online, which while it had some success, I think it had too many flaws.


To me, the only thing that GW needs for this Lucas Model, is to bring WHFB video games under Relic/THQ, who have a proven track record for bringing success to GW in the video game field.

Then there is the movie aspect. Who knows who could potentially do a GW movie set in any of its universes, but as of right now, there isnt one.

mwnciboo wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:The important thing is whether or not there would be a Warhammer 40k Imperial Holiday Special, starring the Emperor's lost son, Lumpicus.

Touche!!

So let me get this straight, if I close the GW Stores and do a Media Blitz and kids want Models Where are they gonna get them? Is that a serious point? I mean you are not trolling?

How about their FLGS? Online? From places like Hobby Craft? From Model shops? Yeah if closed GW shops, GW would go under because they have no other outlets

the majority of GW's sales come from Online orders and 3rd party distrubuters like Wayland games and Hobby Town USA.


This fact makes the way GW treats them very odd, they can't sell things below GW's own prices and can't have sales that discount above a certain amount(the local Hobbytown used to have a Buy 2 get 1 free deal, but GW got all pissed. nows its just a 10% discount)

mwnciboo wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:The important thing is whether or not there would be a Warhammer 40k Imperial Holiday Special, starring the Emperor's lost son, Lumpicus.

Touche!!

So let me get this straight, if I close the GW Stores and do a Media Blitz and kids want Models Where are they gonna get them? Is that a serious point? I mean you are not trolling?

You accuse me of trolling because you can't understand the point?

That's a new one.

The point is that media blitzes do not work for niche products. There's a reason you do not see Warmachine or Warhammer commercials--it's a niche product where any kind of "media blitz" is going to be pointless. It's like trying to run an international advertisement campaign for a local, relatively unknown waterpark--you're doing it wrong if you do it that way.

How about their FLGS? Online? From places like Hobby Craft? From Model shops? Yeah if closed GW shops, GW would go under because they have no other outlets

You might want to rethink your statements, especially given that you're in the UK(a place notorious for having more GW shops than FLGSes).

Here in the US--it's actually a rare thing for an area to have a GW shop. You can go for multiple states and not see a single GW shop, but maybe one or two independents that stock their stuff.

And as it relates to your ridiculous "media blitz" idea, here's a question for you. How are these individuals who see advertisements for Warhammer 40k/Warhammer going to be finding these local shops?

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Then there is the movie aspect. Who knows who could potentially do a GW movie set in any of its universes, but as of right now, there isnt one.

Ultramarines?