Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Edit: I originally intended to do 1 question per post, but I figure this is easier.

Al-Raheem: It says specifically that one roll is made for his reserve. However, what about what board edge his unit(s) come in on. Is this one roll for the entire platoon, or 1 roll for each individual unit.

Immobilized dreads, can they turn and shoot?

Can you cast Gateway from inside a transport, with or without joining a unit (also in the transport).
- Gateway also says "at the beginning of the librarians movement phase ...." Does this mean it is the first thing that must be done, or the first thing the librarian must do when moved.

Assaulting units in cover, with 1 model partially out. If opted, do not make a terrain test, all models 'pile in' on the model that is touching out. Since now terrain test was take, they are not allowed to enter terrain. Does this override the 'must touch a base if possible' since they cannot touch a base due to the rules stating so. I believe it references movement to the movement section (sorry I do not have the book handy).

whole platoon

For your last question about assaulting into cover. You have to bring as many models into base contact as possible, not only yours, but your opponents too. So you can't have all your boys pile into the one out of cover to not have to roll for difficult. Although it is not clear in the book so a good thing to do is to ask your FLGS about it. However if you have a MC for instance, it can just charge the one guy out of cover and not have to roll for difficult terrain.

1) as above, whole platoon
2) they are immobilized, so no they cannot turn.
3) I would say either is fine, It replaces his movement if he moves outside of 2" from the squad he has broken off.
4)Not quite sure what you're asking here

Immobilized dreads can turn and shoot. Under the rules book under "walkers" it mentions that this is to signify their above average agility etc.

Stormcrow wrote:Immobilized dreads can turn and shoot. Under the rules book under "walkers" it mentions that this is to signify their above average agility etc.

Pivoting in general does not count as moving except for Troops inside transports.

IE; I immobilze my Vendetta, Pivoting is not considered movement. Can I still move heck no, you're immobilzed ^^

For more info see BGB Pg 61 4-Damaged-Immobilzed "May not turn in place"

Stormcrow wrote:Immobilized dreads can turn and shoot. Under the rules book under "walkers" it mentions that this is to signify their above average agility etc.

Immobilized dreads are not allowed to pivot completely any more. they have the standard firing arc in front of them that all other vehicles do once they have been immobilized

The last question - I think you mean this:
I assault a unit that has one model outside of terrain, without taking the difficult terrain test. Which takes priority - remaining out of cover (because of the lack of the DT test) or coming into base contact with as many models asd possible (as per assault rules).

I think that the base-to-base wins. You move to assault, and then, because the defenders react, you move as many of both models into the assault. Not sure though.

maaksel wrote:

Assaulting units in cover, with 1 model partially out. If opted, do not make a terrain test, all models 'pile in' on the model that is touching out. Since now terrain test was take, they are not allowed to enter terrain. Does this override the 'must touch a base if possible' since they cannot touch a base due to the rules stating so. I believe it references movement to the movement section (sorry I do not have the book handy).

No, you cannot "avoid" terrain. If there is 1 model outside of terrain, and you can reach the base of another, unengaged model, you must try to base them as well, following the rules of Assaults.

You must move closest to closest, then try to base unengaged models. So, if you move your closest model to the model outside of terrain, but other models can reach the models inside terrain, you cannot avoid taking a terrain test. You must test and then, try to assault whomever you can with the movement allotted. Then Defender's React and come out of cover to get into base with you. They have 6" to do this with, and they ignore terrain.

Since you rolled a Difficult Terrain test, you "assaulted into cover", whether 1 model did, the whole unit did or just the edge of 1 model's base. If you took the test, you "assaulted through cover".

Although, I'm not sure that this answers your question.

puma713 wrote:No, you cannot "avoid" terrain. If there is 1 model outside of terrain, and you can reach the base of another, unengaged model, you must try to base them as well, following the rules of Assaults.

You must move closest to closest, then try to base unengaged models. So, if you move your closest model to the model outside of terrain, but other models can reach the models inside terrain, you cannot avoid taking a terrain test. You must test and then, try to assault whomever you can with the movement allotted. Then Defender's React and come out of cover to get into base with you. They have 6" to do this with, and they ignore terrain.

Since you rolled a Difficult Terrain test, you "assaulted into cover", whether 1 model did, the whole unit did or just the edge of 1 model's base. If you took the test, you "assaulted through cover".

Although, I'm not sure that this answers your question.

That makes no sense. What if the unit is strung out through cover in a line? One model happens to be out of the terrain, and you assault it - you aren't assaulting into cover. And, if you are forced to take the test, what happens when you roll ? You can't reach anyone else. That doesn't stop defenders from reacting, and coming out of terrain, or to the edge of it to reach the combat...

Unless someone can show me a rule otherwise?

xlEternitylx wrote:

That makes no sense. What if the unit is strung out through cover in a line? One model happens to be out of the terrain, and you assault it - you aren't assaulting into cover. And, if you are forced to take the test, what happens when you roll ? You can't reach anyone else. That doesn't stop defenders from reacting, and coming out of terrain, or to the edge of it to reach the combat...

Unless someone can show me a rule otherwise?

You aren't assaulting into terrain, but the fact that you can possibly reach an unengaged model in terrain means you must take the test. You cannot avoid terrain. And if you roll double 1's and you cannot reach, then the assault fails, even if the enemy model is 2" away from you, outside of terrain.

Edit: Visual Aid!




In this picture, the Red unit is assaulting the Blue unit. Two of the Red models can reach unengaged models, but they must go through Difficult Terrain to do so. You're not allowed to pile them all onto the first model in the Blue unit because of the Assault Rules. So, since they must move through terrain, they have to take a DT. If they roll double 1's in the case of this picture, the entire assault fails and no one is moved.

xlEternitylx wrote:

puma713 wrote:No, you cannot "avoid" terrain. If there is 1 model outside of terrain, and you can reach the base of another, unengaged model, you must try to base them as well, following the rules of Assaults.

You must move closest to closest, then try to base unengaged models. So, if you move your closest model to the model outside of terrain, but other models can reach the models inside terrain, you cannot avoid taking a terrain test. You must test and then, try to assault whomever you can with the movement allotted. Then Defender's React and come out of cover to get into base with you. They have 6" to do this with, and they ignore terrain.

Since you rolled a Difficult Terrain test, you "assaulted into cover", whether 1 model did, the whole unit did or just the edge of 1 model's base. If you took the test, you "assaulted through cover".

Although, I'm not sure that this answers your question.

That makes no sense. What if the unit is strung out through cover in a line? One model happens to be out of the terrain, and you assault it - you aren't assaulting into cover. And, if you are forced to take the test, what happens when you roll ? You can't reach anyone else. That doesn't stop defenders from reacting, and coming out of terrain, or to the edge of it to reach the combat...

Unless someone can show me a rule otherwise?

You roll to see how far the unit can assault. Since 1s won't be far enough, the assault doesn't happen - IE your guy that charged the one in the open and is BtB with him comes back.

If you have to move the DT to make an assault, roll first - if you don't get far enough, no assault. And if you do happen to roll far enough, your unit is assaulting through cover, which means you come in at INT 1. I think you're treating charges/assaults as a model-model thing - unless each model is it's own unit, that's not how it works.

Visual aid made it clear, makes sense now

your guy that charged the one in the open and is BtB with him comes back.

That sucks.

I'll step up and disagree with the Al-Rahem single roll Outflank. They roll on a unit by unit basis to see which side each separate unit arrives on (unit in transport, blobs, treated as a single unit, of course).

Breaking it down.
1. Al-Rahem makes the entire Platoon Outflank.
2. Platoon rules say that the Platoon is 'rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.'
3. Outflank rules say that when a UNIT becomes available from Reserves, you roll for the UNIT to see which side it comes in on. Nothing in the Platoon rules modifies the Outflank roll, it only modifies the reserves roll.

Now as an exercise, try this one on. If you were correct in saying that rules affecting Reserves affect all rolls associated with the unit's arrival from reserves, then we wind up with the following:
Astropath and Outflanking unit, unit rolls a 6 on the die, you must add +1 to it, so now it's a 7. Where do they come in from?
Eldar deep striking unit with +2 from Autarchs, add it to their Mishap roll and they can never die to a mishap?
I'm sure others can come up with other examples where the game breaks if you try to apply Reserves modifiers to other rolls. Bottom line, rules affecting Reserves only affect reserves unless stated otherwise (ie Astropath allows you to reroll for side). No such statement about the Platoon rule affecting Outflank, so it doesn't.

Dread, no pivot.

Gateway, don't see why not, but not 100% sure on that one.

Last one, yes, they take a test. the assaulting into terrain rules say that if ANY of the models would have to take a test (note the future tense?) then they take it and the entire unit (entire unit, that would include the first model) can assault that far. puma's graphic explains it perfectly. the rules require you to follow ALL the rules for assaulting, not just the first model closest to closest.

I'm willing to bet from your questions that you were at the NOVA Open. NOVA called both of these (first and last) way wrong, along with others.

don_mondo wrote:
I'm sure others can come up with other examples where the game breaks if you try to apply Reserves modifiers to other rolls. Bottom line, rules affecting Reserves only affect reserves unless stated otherwise (ie Astropath allows you to reroll for side). No such statement about the Platoon rule affecting Outflank, so it doesn't.

And the opposite side of the argument generally acknowledges that the rules for Outflanking is nestled snuggly in the Reserves section. So, when they are rolled collectively "for Reserves", it could mean anything underneath the Reserves section.

Not that I necessarily agree, but it is something to consider.

And yet, they are separate rolls. Reserves If the Reserves roll itself determined which side they came in on, i'd agree. But it doesn't and the Outflank rules specifically state you roll by unit. And the Platoon rule says absolutely nothing about affecting other rolls.

puma713 wrote:

xlEternitylx wrote:

That makes no sense. What if the unit is strung out through cover in a line? One model happens to be out of the terrain, and you assault it - you aren't assaulting into cover. And, if you are forced to take the test, what happens when you roll ? You can't reach anyone else. That doesn't stop defenders from reacting, and coming out of terrain, or to the edge of it to reach the combat...

Unless someone can show me a rule otherwise?

You aren't assaulting into terrain, but the fact that you can possibly reach an unengaged model in terrain means you must take the test. You cannot avoid terrain. And if you roll double 1's and you cannot reach, then the assault fails, even if the enemy model is 2" away from you, outside of terrain.

Edit: Visual Aid!



In this picture, the Red unit is assaulting the Blue unit. Two of the Red models can reach unengaged models, but they must go through Difficult Terrain to do so. You're not allowed to pile them all onto the first model in the Blue unit because of the Assault Rules. So, since they must move through terrain, they have to take a DT. If they roll double 1's in the case of this picture, the entire assault fails and no one is moved.

I agree with this. Basically you measure 6 to units in cover, and if you CAN make it, you need to roll DT to get there. If you roll snake eyes, and closest to closest to closest was 3" away, you fail to assault. There are obviously blatant was around this, simply keeping your squad far enough back so that everyone else is more than 6" away, and the closest assaulting model is just within 6. Or, you may attempt to block yourself off if it is close, by moving units in the middle first (remember only the closest has to move first!), making it impossible for the models that are technically closer to engage units because they now have too far to go. I want to say that I am playing devils advocate, I agree, but I'm presenting the argument.

"All models in an assaulting unit make their assault moves following the same rules as the Movement phase..." pg34, second paragraph
- This means that movement rules take precedence over how models are moved during the assault phase. If you finish the above paragraph, it states that you may move closer than 1" of an enemy model. This seems to be the only change.

Moving through difficult terrain (pg 14) Paragraph 3
"If the units starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he *WANTS* his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as a part of their move. If he CHOOSES not to ,the unit moves as normal but MAY NOT ENTER difficult terrain."

Player says to himself "I don't want to enter difficult terrain".

Move assault units (pg 34) (keep in mind, we have determines that moving models uses the movement phase rules).
Paragraph 3, "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible."
Paragraph 4, bullet 2 "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model

So the problem is, the movement phase (which we're using for moving in the assault phase) says that you can CHOOSE to enter difficult terrain, if you CHOOSE not to, you MAY NOT ENTER difficult terrain, thus making the units in terrain impossible targets.

Page 57, Vehicles and Movement, paragraph 6, lines 8-10 state: "..., so a vehicle that only pivots during the movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)." So, no, an immobilized dreadnaught cannot pivot.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Page 57, Vehicles and Movement, paragraph 6, lines 8-10 state: "..., so a vehicle that only pivots during the movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)." So, no, an immobilized dreadnaught cannot pivot.

Check the wording under dreadnought shooting. I believe it is "turn the model to face XYZ", I don't have the rulebook here at work. But specifically "pivot" is not used.

Turning is pivoting.

Really? Because last I checked, they were not the same.

You guys can't just say "X is Y" without some sort of reference from somewhere.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Page 57, Vehicles and Movement, paragraph 6, lines 8-10 state: "..., so a vehicle that only pivots during the movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)." So, no, an immobilized dreadnaught cannot pivot.

This plus pg 72.
"When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spotso that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45, like hull-mounted weapons) and then measure..."
That makes me think that no you cannot pivot, however later on the same page it reads
"This pivoting in the Shooting phase does not count as moving and represents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles."
and that makes me think that you can since it is not movement.

puma713 wrote:

xlEternitylx wrote:

That makes no sense. What if the unit is strung out through cover in a line? One model happens to be out of the terrain, and you assault it - you aren't assaulting into cover. And, if you are forced to take the test, what happens when you roll ? You can't reach anyone else. That doesn't stop defenders from reacting, and coming out of terrain, or to the edge of it to reach the combat...

Unless someone can show me a rule otherwise?

You aren't assaulting into terrain, but the fact that you can possibly reach an unengaged model in terrain means you must take the test. You cannot avoid terrain. And if you roll double 1's and you cannot reach, then the assault fails, even if the enemy model is 2" away from you, outside of terrain.

Edit: Visual Aid!




In this picture, the Red unit is assaulting the Blue unit. Two of the Red models can reach unengaged models, but they must go through Difficult Terrain to do so. You're not allowed to pile them all onto the first model in the Blue unit because of the Assault Rules. So, since they must move through terrain, they have to take a DT. If they roll double 1's in the case of this picture, the entire assault fails and no one is moved.

In your example, with the closest models being 2" away does succeed. It just means only one model makes it to b2b until the defenders react. If those first 2 models are just over 2" apart, then yes the assault fails.

Homer

Akroma06 wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Page 57, Vehicles and Movement, paragraph 6, lines 8-10 state: "..., so a vehicle that only pivots during the movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot)." So, no, an immobilized dreadnaught cannot pivot.

This plus pg 72.
"When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spotso that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45, like hull-mounted weapons) and then measure..."
That makes me think that no you cannot pivot, however later on the same page it reads
"This pivoting in the Shooting phase does not count as moving and represents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles."
and that makes me think that you can since it is not movement.

Yep, also:

BRB page 61, 4 Damaged - Immobilised 3rd sentence: "An Immobilized vehicle may not turn in place but it's turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arc of fire."

I realize that the Damage result mentions "turn in place" not pivot or Rotate, but they are all synonymous(and have to be since Vehicles and movement on page 57 also discusses "Pivoting on the spot"); so either this portion of the immobilsed result is meaningless or no vehicle may pivot when immobilised.

p.s. Homer: if the squad rolled double 1's then the whole assault fails. Every member abides by the movement not just the ones attempting to enter/move through Difficult Terrain, and the 2D6 is pick the highest, not added so the closest model in the diagram can only move 1" leaving him 1" from B2B, Failing the assault and no movement is ever made.

maaksel wrote:Really? Because last I checked, they were not the same.

You guys can't just say "X is Y" without some sort of reference from somewhere.

In what way is pivoting not turning on the spot?

I think Kommissar Kel has changed my mind. The top half of a walker should be able to rotate like a turret, and so if the turret on an immbilized tank can rotate, so can a dreadnaught.

Then look at killakanz, who have no ability to pivot around the waist.

You cannot pivot, and you do not have turret mounted weapons so have a fixed weapons arc of 45 degrees.

Ghenghis Jon wrote: The top half of a walker should be able to rotate like a turret,

Why? Most walkers in the game currently don't have a waist joint. And there are no rules that say to treat the top of the walker as a turret.

... and so if the turret on an immbilized tank can rotate, so can a dreadnaught.

A turret on a tank can rotate because there are specific rules that say that turrets can rotate. The immobilised tank cannot turn on the spot... and neither can an immobilised walker.

Homer S wrote:

puma713 wrote:




In this picture, the Red unit is assaulting the Blue unit. Two of the Red models can reach unengaged models, but they must go through Difficult Terrain to do so. You're not allowed to pile them all onto the first model in the Blue unit because of the Assault Rules. So, since they must move through terrain, they have to take a DT. If they roll double 1's in the case of this picture, the entire assault fails and no one is moved.

In your example, with the closest models being 2" away does succeed. It just means only one model makes it to b2b until the defenders react. If those first 2 models are just over 2" apart, then yes the assault fails.

Homer

How? If you roll double 1's, you can move 1" toward the enemy unit. With another 1" to stretch, you do not get into base-to-base contact.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:I think Kommissar Kel has changed my mind. The top half of a walker should be able to rotate like a turret, and so if the turret on an immbilized tank can rotate, so can a dreadnaught.

There is a huge logical disconnect here.

How does my saying Walkers cannot Pivot change your mind to now believe they can? the only thing I can think of that makes sense of that is Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

Walkers are not Turrets, and excepting a few Super heavy or Forge world walkers, they don't generally have turrets.

Walkers are vehicles, Walkers have the ability to Pivot their entire form in the shooting phase, the Immobilised result removes the ability to pivot from any vehicle that suffers said result: Immobilised walkers cannot pivot.