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Hi, I posted an Imperial Guard list a few months ago and got some really good advice and feedback on the list. Since then, I have got more into competitive play, and the only really built one competitive list, and this is an Ork army. I have decided to try and bash together a second competitive army that uses more long ranged firepower to see which I prefer, and as I have only just started amassing Guard miniatures (1 Infantry Squad and a Command Squad), I felt that this would be good choice as I already have the codex and Guard are considered a strong codex at the minute.

Before anyone says anything about Hydra's, Griffons, Medusae and Colossuses, I don't want to include any in my army, I don't want to buy any Forge World models and I'm only up to converting man sized models. However if I am wrong and GW does produce a kit for any of these models I will happily consider them, maybe the latter 3 are inlcuded in the Basilisk kit?

Any feedback is welcome and thanks in advance for your help.

2,000pt Guard List

HQ

Company Command Squad: 195
-Officer of the Fleet
-Regimental Standard
-3 Plasma Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Elites

Psyker Battle Squad (1 Overseer, 6 Sanctioned Psykers): 135
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Troops

Platoon

Platoon Command Squad: 135
-Heavy Flamer
-3 Melta Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Combined Squad (3 Squads): 185
-Commisar


Veteran Squad A: 145
-Lascannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad B: 145
-Lascannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad C: 135
-Autocannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad D: 135
-Autocannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack

Vendetta: 130

Vendetta: 130

Heavy Support

Manticore: 160
-Heavy Flamer

Manticore: 160
-Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Executioner: 210
-Heavy Flamer Sponsons

Total: 2,000:


Ok, so I'll just run throught the list quickly.

The Company Command Squad is there to Issue orders and occupy the HQ slot. The Plasma guns are there because I've already glued them on and to give it at least a little bit of effective shooting. The Officer of the Fleet is there to give Daemons and heavily deep striking armies hell, but also to provide a disincentive for my opponent to reserve a lot of his stuff to avoid my firepower.

The Psyker Battle Squad is there to mess up Hammer Units by ruining their leadership so that when my armies firepower hits them they start running.

The Platoon is there to bubble wrap, simple as that, and the Chimera for the PCS adds another Chimera to the wall so it can be helpful. The heavy flamer helps in the frnzy of setting fire to things if foot troops get too close and the Meltas ruin a vehicle if that gets too close.

The 4 Veteran Squads are there to bulk out my Chimera wall, but they also add some anti-tank firepower to the mix, popping transports etc before they get too close.

The Vendettas are there to scout move up the field, expose side armour then wreck vehicles with their Lascannons.

The Manticores provide some long range ordanance to pound infantry when they fall out of their wrecked transports, else, wreck some transports themselves.

And finally, the Executioner provides some nice firepower to blow units away incase they get too close.

Thanks for reading and thanks again in advance for your help.

Need ratlings in there to maximise the PBS.

Ok, thanks, that sounds like quite a good idea, a squad of 3 only costs 30pts and that is effectively pinning a unit every time if used in conjunction with the Psyker Battle Squad. The only thing would be that I was aiming to use the PBS in conjunction with other units to chase units off the board rather than Pin them, that and the Chimera wall may block the Ratlings LoS a bit, but I'll consider it. Thanks.

Anyone else got any suggestions?

Don't put heavy weapons in chimeras. Chimeras are supposed to remain mobile and if they do the heavy weapon cannot shoot ... If they remain still they auto die when charged.

Stick them in a Heavy Weapons squad instead.

Executioner is pricey. I'd rather have a 3rd vendetta and spend the difference on an autocannon HWS.

Drop the standard in the CCS. Fluffy, but not better than a 4th plasma!

Ok, thanks for your help.

Putting the Heavy Weapons in a Chimera does seem like a rather stupid decision now that I think about it, however I'm not a great fan of HWS either because of their mobility issues, I used them and because you don't want to move them and they're not the most durable things, they tend to die when I use them. How about leaving the 2 Vet squads with the Autocannons alone so that they can sit back in their Chimeras and shoot, and then give the other 2 Melta Guns to make them more manouverable and still allow them to do a bit of Tank/Terminator ruining?

Ok, I'll change the Regimental Standard for a Plasma then, sounds like a good idea.

Thanks for your help.

The CCS should have max special weapons, the standard isn't going to help them as in combat they will get minced.

Veterans are all about maxing special weapons too, do not take heavy weaps as Chimeras are moving pillboxes so use them as such.

Rest is fine, though I'm not a fan of that single Executioner. I can just see it been avoided or taken out quickly when against the wrong type of army.

ruminator wrote:Don't put heavy weapons in chimeras. Chimeras are supposed to remain mobile and if they do the heavy weapon cannot shoot ... If they remain still they auto die when charged.

Stick them in a Heavy Weapons squad instead.

I disagree with the notion, "Never put heavy weapons in Chimeras", though I do agree that typically they should be moving.

I usually run my Vet squads with 3x Special Weapons and an Autocannon. The Autocannon is only 10 points, against certain opponents (Dark Eldar, for example), doubles the amount of targets (ideally transports) the unit as a whole can engage. So instead of moving 6 and firing your multilaser at one transport, you can opt to sit still and fire the multilaser at one, and the BS4 autocannon at the other.

As long as your opponent will come to you anyway, AND you have bubble wrap, having these extra BS4 autocannon shots can make a huge difference.



Running a Heavy Weapon model in a vehicle also provides a number of other benefits. Your disembarkation from the tank gets you farther away due to the increased base size, you have a multiwound model that can be assigned wounds so you don't lose anybody, and if your vehicle explodes your opponent is rolling 9 d6 instead of 10 to wound you. All in all, the HW provides a lot of advantages.

I must say i agree with mercer on the point of a lone executioner and another point if you do have it why would you put heavy flamer sponsons you don't want to get close with a tank like that yeah it does have rear armour 11 but it has 36" range when ever i fielded executioners i gave the plasma cannon sponsons so thats 5 plasma cannons a turn (because you cant over heat) anything no matter what infantry will feel that pain.

Ok, Brilliant. Thanks for your help.

The reason for the Heavy Flamer Sponsons is because I like burning things and in case of fast moving lists or DoA lists. Also, I'm not sure about Plasma Sponsons as if you look in the BRB the LoS of Sponsons on Leman Russes show that only 1 can ever be in LoS of a target per shooting phase, but I'll probably just drop the Leman Russ.

What would you suggest I replace it with? I was thinking maybe a third Manticore?

3rd Manticore is fine.

To me, your list is very inefficent... I can guess your other army is Kan wall by your build.

Nuggs...

and if your vehicle explodes your opponent is rolling 9 d6 instead of 10 to wound you

I do not understand your meaning... everyone in the vehicle takes a Str 4 wound automaticly as per the BRB, pg 67. Could you expand on this incase I am not understanding something here?

Ok, thanks, I'll do the 3rd Manticore thing then, and your close with the Kan Wall, but it's not that, although it does work on the premise of having fewer models but with enhanced survivability, excluding the transports. I take 3 squads of 10 Nobz in Trukks and they have a Painboy, 'Eavy Armour and Cybork Bodies. 2 of those squads have Warbosses in, I recognise though that I do need Ghazghull.

Anyway back to the list. Here is the updated version:

2,000pt Guard List

HQ

Company Command Squad: 195
-Officer of the Fleet
-4 Plasma Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Elites

Psyker Battle Squad (1 Overseer, 6 Sanctioned Psykers): 135
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Troops

Platoon

Platoon Command Squad: 135
-Heavy Flamer
-3 Melta Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Combined Squad (3 Squads): 185
-Commisar


Veteran Squad A: 155
-3 Melta Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad B: 155
-3 Melta Guns
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad C: 135
-Autocannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad D: 135
-Autocannon Weapons Team
-Chimera
--Heavy Flamer (In place of Heavy Bolter)

Fast Attack

Vendetta: 130

Vendetta: 130

Heavy Support

Manticore: 160
-Heavy Flamer

Manticore: 160
-Heavy Flamer

Manticore: 160
-Heavy Flamer

Total: 1,970:

Ok, so here it is, I have changed the Lascannons in the veteran squads for Meltas and I have removed the Leman Russ and replaced it with a further Manticore.

Thanks for your help everyone. Also, what would you recommend that I should do to make the list more efficient?

Well, I just wouldn't waste points on Chimeras to use them as a Rhino/Kan wall. They are just to expensive when you compare a Chimera is 55pts and Camo Netting is 30pts and a AC HWS is 75pts... and I wouldn't even run the Camo Netting. Manticores are great, but when your practically dedicating more points to defend them than what they are even worth, and skimping on those forces... it is just ineffecient to me.

I am also not sold on having artillery when your goal is to have half of your forces get within 6"-12". If your fighting another 'assault' list (any aggressive list where they want to get close) your artillery risks hitting your own units and that is just wasteful as well. Yeah, turn 1 you will crush stuff, but turn 2 they move 6-12" and you move 6-12" and that 2' gap between forces is gone. Either go all in on the Chimera/Vet/Melta rush and/or back them up with non-scatterable weapons. Making a pure gunline list to give the manticores at least 2-3 rounds of Fire might be a better list if you want 3 Manticores.

Let me give this concept a shot...

CCS - 270pts
OotF, MoO, Creed, Plasma gun x2, Lascannon, Camo Cloaks

Lord Commissar - 80pts
Bolter, Camo Cloak

Platoon 1
PCS - 60pts (in Vendetta)
4x Flamers, Plasma Pistol

PIS - 130pts Blob 1
Commissar, 2x Power Weapons, Melta gun, AC, Melta Bomb

PIS - 85pts Blob 1
PW, Melta gun, AC, Melta Bomb

Platoon 2
PCS - 60pts (in Vendetta)
4x Flamers, Plasma Pistol

PIS - 130pts Blob 2
Commissar, 2x Power Weapons, Melta gun, AC, Melta Bomb

PIS - 85pts Blob 2
PW, Melta gun, AC, Melta Bomb

2x HWS - 75pts each (150pts, Platoon 1)

2x HWS - 105pts each (210pts, Platoon 1)

Vendetta - 130pts

Vendetta - 130pts

Manticore - 160pts

Manticore - 160pts

Manticore - 160pts

2000pts

The Blobs bubble wrap the Manticores. They can now fire ACs and have Meltas for outflankers, DSers, and Drop Pods. The Lord is within 6" of the 4 HWSs, and all the ground units are within 24" of Creed. If you really want, you can outflank a Platoon with Creed's ability (I would suggest Platoon 2, the PCS then doesn't ride in a Vendetta), but I wouldn't bother. The PCSs ride in the Vendettas in Objective games for late game objective grabbing (Turn 4-5). The MoO with 'BiD!' gives you a 4th artillery shot that is TLed if fired on a Vehicle or MC. Between the Vendettas, CCS, and the LC HWSs, you have 13 possible TLed LC shots at 5 targets (depending on Orders and target). Between the Blobs and the AC HWSs, you have 20 possible TLed AC shots at 4 targets (depending on Orders and target). Sure, I have less Melta and Plasma, but every special weapon slot is filled and being used. The blobs not only can deal with assaults, but are good at them... and even have a chance against walkers.

Hope this helps or at least gives you some food for thought!

Ok, that looks really good.

There are a couple of things however that I might change due to the theme of my army, as I'm trying to go for more of a mechanized theme.

I don't think I'll take HWSs. I enjoyed using them when they worked, but they tend to go against my style of play, as they are unable to move without losing out and firing and are flimsy things that will easily get shot apart when in LoS, which is where they will want to be to hit things, and are generally not manouverable enough for my play style.

This may also mean that I should drop the Lord Commissar, as I'm guessing that he's only there to keep the HWSs from running off the board?

This may also lead for me not to take Creed as well. In my previous army, he worked really well, but if the only things that I have on foot are the blobs then I am unsure on whether he is worth taking.

I really like what you've done with the PCSs by the way BTW and thanks for the help.

If you have heavy weapons, even in a Chimera, they can not move and fire. The only thing for that are Vendettas/Valks because they are fast vehicles, so they can move 6" and fire all of their weapons, or go 12" and fire one weapon.

You put the HWS in cover for a 4+ cover save. The Lord Commissar is there to use his Aura of Discipline to let them use his leadership for Orders/Morale/Pinning tests, though at least one of them has to be within 6" of the Lord. You can attach the Lord to one HWS to make it Stubborn.

Going Mech does not help you. If the vehicles are static with a unit in them, the unit will also be destroyed due to the fact that every guy takes a wound when it blows up. If you move up to engage the enemy, your wasting your Manticores because now they can't shoot because your Chimeras are in the way.

If you want to go mech and be agressive, drop 2 Manticores and replace them with LRBTs. You wanted the 3 Manticores, so I made you a list to make best use of those 3 Manticores.

Ok, thanks, that's a good point about the toughness 3. I'm used to playing Trukk Orks so I only get wounded on 5+ when my vehicles explode. In that case, I'm going to use the list that you suggested. Thanks for the help!

Yeah, Str 4 shot per guy... Your Orks would normally be wounded on a 4+, but open topped makes it 5+. Guard with T 3 get wounded on a 3+, then any who survive have to make that morale check at probably a -5 to -7. This is why most mech Guard who lose their Chimera just write off the unit in them. This is also why Chimera/melta/Vet spam works best with as many Chimera/melta/vets that you can fit in to overwhelm your foe.

Ah, I didn't know that you took the leadership check at a minus modifier for losing casualties from vehicles exploding, I'll have to remember that. And yeah, 5+ because Open-Topped vehicles explode at S3 against the T4 of my Nobz.

Anytime you take enough casualties to make a Ld check you have to.

Destroyed - explodes!

The unit suffers a number of Str 4, AP - hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are place where the vehicle use to be and then take a pinning test.

Pg 67 Base Rule Book

Yeah, sorry I thought you meant morale check and not pinning check, the Nobz that don't use a Warboss have been on the recieving end of that one too many times, they only re-roll Ld7.

No... the key line is 'treated just like hits from shooting.'

You make the Morale check if enough guys died to make a check, just like from shooting.

If you make the check, or you did not lose enough guys to make a Morale check, you make a pinning test.

You do not make a pinning test if the unit fails the morale test or is destroyed.

Yeah, sorry, I was talking about results from wrecked transport vehicles, which do cause units embarked in them to take pinning checks.

Thanks for the heads up though