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Ok, so some quick backstory. There is a thread in the swap shop which had problems. We have the Reputable traders list (RTL), which is a list of all positive trades. We also have a Transaction Report List (TRL) which indicates incomplete or unresolved trades.

The problem is that these threads do not talk to each other. A person could have positive trades, be on the RTL, and then start scamming people, and remain on the RTL despite having many unfinished unresolved trades on the TRL. When this was pointed out, Jin indicated that current Swap Shop policy is negative trades generally do not cancel previous good trades, and (correctly) posted it was offtopic in the thread and should be posted here as a feature request.

Assuming Swap Shop policy remains as is (which I think is best, but that's a whole other discussion) , here are the three choices I see for resolving this\improving the process:

1.) Editing the format of the RTL to include a bullet point referencing the TPL and perhaps the excellent disclaimer Ritides has: Note: Someone having a disputed transaction on this list does not necessarily mean you should not trade with them. However, especially if it is in the Unresolved section, I would inquire about it before trading, and consider taking the extra precautions described at the end of the above post.

2.) This might be too perjorative, or simply too much work for the Swap Shop mods, but perhaps adding an asterisk next to the name of person on the RTL who has unresolved stuff on the TPL, Barry Bonds* style.

3.) Merging these 2 threads into one thread, with a redirect on the existing thread. Post 1 is the current header from the RTL, Post 2 is the TPL (which is just one post, repeatedly edited), Post 3 is a placeholder for future use by the management, and user content starts at Post 4. Maybe this is killing a fly with a cannon though.

I'd love to see what some of the Swap Shop mods think.

Interesting points. From a Swap Mod point of view, what immediately strikes me is 'more work'. Now that may strike people as a very selfish attitude to take but people sometimes forget that Mods don't do the job out of a desire to wield power over their fellow man, rather that we do it because we love Dakka and wish to see the Swap Shop operate as efficiently and safely for all users. To that end we donate as much free time as we can to facilitate this but it does mean we have finite amounts of time to devote to it. Without wishing to put words into other's mouths or speak on behalf of others, I am sure that RiTides (who updates the TRL and Ketara who does the RTL would agree that it is a fair amount of time that they need to devote to updating the threads and keeping them running. Any change/addition to that process will naturally involve more effort on their part, especially if one considers having to cross-reference between threads.

With all that, I think that rules out options 1 and 2 in my eyes. I think 3 is a potentially neater solution to the problem - consolidating the threads into one so that the info is all in one place - but that still ignores the fundamental issue that is at the heart of all the problems; that is, people don't read stickies. You can have one thread or two threads but you cannot force people to read them or do their research before they trade.

I think it is also worth mentioning here and reiterating that the Swap Shop operates on a purely caveat emptor basis. Dakka simply provides the tools and means for communication - we cannot and should not be held responsible for trades or trades gone bad; if you want those sorts of protection then there are plenty of trading sites out there that do. That's not intended to be harsh or rude - just stating the facts. The moment Dakka starts handing out 'negative reputation' for trades is the moment we start taking more responsibility when those trades go bad and that is something that I believe the current management are unwilling to do; Dakka simply provides the venue and the conduit to trade.

Bottom line is, the information is there for people to use, we just need to find a way to make users more aware/informed/educated about it all before making trades. Easier said than done sometimes


Edit: I feel I need to caveat all of this by saying that firstly, I am a relatively new Swap Mod so my views may differ slightly from the more longer-standing Mods as they have way more experience with dealing with all of this - I have stayed out of the recent TR threads as a result - I am still learning how to handle the situation as it arises.

Well, I appreciate this thread being created because it does seem to be an issue that I had not considered! I'm lazy, too- perhaps asking people to double-check 2 stickies instead of 1 each time they want to trade is too much?

So, I'm obviously inclined towards Option 3. Conveniently, I happen to have the first post in the Reputable Traders List after Ketara's initial post . I could easily simply copy the text from the Transaction Report List, and paste it in there.

However, my concern is that, that's a looooooooot of scrolling to get down to the transaction reports. Will it result in more people checking? And how do we let them know that they're there now?

Another option is to delete the stickies (or probably, in the case of the Reputable Traders List, simple lock and unsticky it and let it slip down the page, so we still have the record) and create a new sticky as you describe.

I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on it, but certainly Option 3 seems the easiest!



There is one other benefit to that option- it still keeps the lists separate. Our goal is not to be making judgements on the trustworthiness (or not) of people, simply providing a means for feedback for people to draw their own conclusions. I think asterisks could be a problem in that regard, particularly since sometimes a TR is posted by one user... and that user turns out to be the likely cause of the problem.

So, more thoughts?

Maybe a positive/negative trade counter for users. To automate it would require a massive over-haul of the current system and in my mind would operate simialiar to e-bay.

Each transation would have a page (seperate from the thread) with trade details (no personal info) and upon agreement (each user would have a button to accept the trade as detailed) you would then be able to give a positive or negative rating. Reaching for the stars I know.

The manual method to implement this would be to have the mods update this info on each users profile, though I'm not sure how much work that would end up being.

Any more thoughts / opinions / ideas on this?

Number 2 would certainly be feasible, however the end result would no doubt be people treating the asterisk as a 'negative cred' so to speak, which it isn't always necessarily. You might argue that we could explicitly state that wasn't the case, but I feel it would do very little to dissuade people from thinking along those lines. Indeed, should we decide to go whole hog, and place an asterisk next to them of the people who have the transaction report against them AND the people who start the transaction report (in order to cover against the more spurious TR's, which we have seen before), there'd be an uproar. So whilst possible, I think it would be the first step towards marking out 'negative' traders

As for one and three, both are entirely feasible, however I think it fail to have any real effect for the following reason: Anyone with half a brain already uses both, has read the rules, and knows how the Swapshop works. The old adage of 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' springs to mind. Both the RTL and the TRL already exist. Both are already accessible.

I mean, it just strikes me that shuffling the posts around about, or providing an extra link is redundant. I can't for the life of me think of a single situation I've encounteed as a SwapMod so far that made me think, 'Drat. If only the TRL had been beneath the RTL, all this could have been avoided'. If we did that, I would feel we were just doing it for the sake of doing something, as a bit of a kneejerk response. If I genuinely thought either would in any way decrease the possibility of problems cropping up, I'd be all for it, but for the life of me, I cannot.


I think the essential problem here is the fact that we do not instantly suspend RTL credit as soon as a Transaction point pops up on a user. It's true, sometimes it takes a week or so for credit to be removed/a user banned. But unfortunately, I can't personally see a way for us to change the process and still retain fairness. In the same way if a man ran into a police station and accused you of murder, the police would not immediately sling you in a cell, we have to make the provision for people to defend themselves and clear their name. We have actually had several cases whereby it has sounded at the start of the TR that the accused is the lovechild of Herr Hitler and Josef Fritzl, but upon their rebuttal, the other party is revealed to be at equal fault.

The TR is ultimately, at the end of the day, nothing more than an accusation of bad trading practice. Without any evidence, or a chance for a person to defend themselves, should we immediately delete all their credit? (which is not currently stored elsewhere-when gone it is gone for good) To do so I think, would an act of gross negligence and unfairness on our part. Ultimately, as Filbert says, it comes down to Caveat Emptor, and whilst we will of course take steps against people we believe to be a risk to the users of Dakka, the process cannot, and should not be instantaneous.

Those are my views anyway.

This may seem naive, so pardon if it is but, could you link the names that are on both lists? That way if I check MrX on either list I can automatically go to the other list to see any problem. Also could it be possible to link the people with the actual report? That way people could see the actual "what's going on here?" and make their own decision? While I genuinely appreciate all the mods and the two threads in question it is a pain in the rump to try to find some transaction reports? A little more help would be very nice.

Thank you for all of your hard work.