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I'm a long time Chaos player but I never thought about this until tonight when I was sitting looking at my Abaddon model. He took Horus's lightning claw, but shouldn't it be way bigger then? The primarchs are described as being about twice the size of a space marine so shouldn't his lightning claw be oversized for Abaddon? Is this ever discussed in the fluff somewhere?

morgendonner wrote:I'm a long time Chaos player but I never thought about this until tonight when I was sitting looking at my Abaddon model. He took Horus's lightning claw, but shouldn't it be way bigger then? The primarchs are described as being about twice the size of a space marine so shouldn't his lightning claw be oversized for Abaddon? Is this ever discussed in the fluff somewhere?

Well, Space Marines average at a little over seven feet tall.

Abaddon in Horus Rising is described as being tall and large even for a Marine.

The only definitive statement on the height of a Primarch I know of is Lion El'Jonson being a little less than three meters tall in Descent of Angels. Jonson is about average in height for a Primarch I think, and Horus' size compared to other Primarchs is never said to be larger than normal, like Ferrus Manus or Magnus the Red, so will assume Horus is about the same height.

Actually, looking at a picture of Abaddon standing next to Horus wearing the claw, the size seems about right to me, the claw looks smaller on Horus than it does on Abaddon, so I think the size is about right.

Well, the claw on the model is a bit small, Look at some pics with horus and the claw is horus sized. I think it should be bigger.

No, Space Marines are 10 feet tall in PA. In TA, they are 13 feet tall. Primarchs were in special PA, as they were 10 feet tall w/o PA, and with PA, 13. That's why the claw looks normal.

10 feet tall lol. Try 7-8.

Corrode wrote:10 feet tall lol. Try 7-8.

No DCM will knowingly concede that a space marine is less than 10 feet tall.

This is the way of things.

Primarchs were roughly 8 feet tall, and it wasn't unheard of for Marines to be around that height. Alpharius had a tall marine act as his double on more than one occasion. It's like giving a tight-fitting glove for a big man to a slightly less big man. The glove still fits, just slightly looser.

Well, Marines in 40k are not to scale to the human models anyway, that's the entire point of "true scale" marine conversions.
I'd love to see GW designers give us their take on the Primarchs, since a lot of people (me included) build their own because they like the idea so much.

There's Angron stats out there somewhere I think, but I'd be more interested in Fulgrim, since he'd get at least 6 poisoned attacks. And imagine the special rules Alpharius could bring to bear...

Abaddon took the claw, but do we know if he wields it like it was originally created or is it possible it was reforged/refitted to match his suit of armor?

Could have done, but I always thought it looked a bit big for him.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Corrode wrote:10 feet tall lol. Try 7-8.

No DCM will knowingly concede that a space marine is less than 10 feet tall.

This is the way of things.

That's because they are 7-9 feet tall, and IMO most would be on the upper end of that.
Chowderhead is misremembering, it's adorable.

This is an easy answer...

Ever since Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition, all magic weapons can re-size themselves one size category larger or smaller to accommodate a new user. Clearly the Talon shrank one size category (presumably from 'Huge' -Horus to 'Large'- Abaddon) so that a mere Chaos Marine could use it.

But how is D&D rule applicable in a 40K setting? Easy. The rulebook says "ALL magic weapons"... it does not say "just the magic weapons in this game setting", so clearly the rule applies to Excalibur, Sting (not the singer), Voltron's Blazing Sword, and whatever else you care to name.

Think about that the next time you are eating a Peppermint Patty.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Corrode wrote:10 feet tall lol. Try 7-8.

No DCM will knowingly concede that a space marine is less than 10 feet tall.

This is the way of things.

I will. They're 9 feet tall, as purplefood generously pointed out. Chowder is just engaging in silly antics. Pretty sure that it was said that Jes confirmed it at a convention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:This is an easy answer...

Ever since Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition, all magic weapons can re-size themselves one size category larger or smaller to accommodate a new user. Clearly the Talon shrank one size category (presumably from 'Huge' -Horus to 'Large'- Abaddon) so that a mere Chaos Marine could use it.

But how is D&D rule applicable in a 40K setting? Easy. The rulebook says "ALL magic weapons"... it does not say "just the magic weapons in this game setting", so clearly the rule applies to Excalibur, Sting (not the singer), Voltron's Blazing Sword, and whatever else you care to name.

Think about that the next time you are eating a Peppermint Patty.

Ah, but you're assuming those are all "magical". While I will gladly concede that Excalibur and Sting (both of them) are magical, I've been offered no evidence to show that The Blazing Sword of Voltron, the Talon of Horus, or the Sword of Greyskull, for that matter, were ever magical.

Okay, actually, it looks like Wikipedia says that the Sword of Greyskull was magical. I still stand by the others.

I would like point out that the Night Lords in AD-B's novels are close to a full 3 meters. Considering that Abadon should probably be on a bigger base, we do have to remember he was in Terminator armor, and just because Horus was a tall friggin' Primarch, Abbadon is chosen by the Chaos gods... And considering the Talon of Horus has been corrupted by the Chaos gods, its not hard to think that the Talon will have some taint of Tzeentch and shift to the size of its user, even if its like from 14 feet down to like 11 or so.

And Abbaddon was tall even for a marine, and that in Horus's artwork it's a lot smaller on him, and that Abbaddon's model is stupidly old and dis-proportioned.

Just because Primarchs were larger then their Marines doesn't mean their weapons were larger. although they could be depending on the actual weapon.


a Primarch, due to his increased strength, could wield a sword much larger then a Space marine could. but this has to to with strength not hand/arm size.

But a Primarch's hands wouldn't have to be larger then a Marines hands. this is what would allow Abbaddon to use Horus's Lightining Claw, the hand just has to fit. Abbaddon being larger then your typical marine would also help.


the Talon of Horus looks slightly oversized on Abbaddon, although not too large. it would be just right for a primarch.

Perhaps this is why his arms never stay on, they're too heavy.

Finecast is your friend

I think 10 feet tall is a little extreme. Just as we have Shaquille O'Neal now, but he's very rare, I think a 10 foot space marine is very hard to hind. 9 seems much more average, and even a few 8 foot shorties.

Marines without power armor = 7' to 8'

Marines in power armor = 7'+ to 8'+

Of course there are some 'regular' marines that are taller than that, but they are the outliers in this discussion.

Primarchs = Almost shouldn't be included in the discussion as they vary in height greatly, but say the range is 9' to 12'?

So, once again, there you have it!

Abaddon is huge. The other members of the Mournival joke in Horus Rising that he doesn't even fit in terminator armor.

As for the ever-present SM height discussion, I'm a firm believer of the 7'6" measurement. I don't understand the wild variations people come up with for the addition of armor though. Armor doesn't make you taller. The only aspect of the armor that would increase their standing height is the thickness of their boot soles, so unless you are implying that their boot soles are 4"-6" thick than they are only going to be an inch or so taller when in armor.

Well, AND the thickness of the crown of the helmet. I don't think that saying that the soles of the boots + the thickness of the crown of the helmet being 2-3" thick each is completely unreasonable.

It's strongly suggested that Abaddon is a clone of Horus, so I don't see any particular problem with him being of similar size.

sirrah wrote:It's strongly suggested that Abaddon is a clone of Horus

Where is this suggested?

He resembles Horus, but many of the Luna Wolves did, their gene-seed had a quirk that resulted in many of the Legion turning out to resemble Horus, such a Marine was called a "Son of Horus."

The 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 Chaos codices all make reference to rumours that Abaddon is "the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation." and Slaves to Darkness mentions the traitor legions superficially remaining loyal to Horus and his clone-sons, though this is obviously pre-Abaddon in fluff, and could refer to the clones made by the EC (which would be wierd, since the Black Legion was pretty smegging angry about it).

I remember it being mentioned again in the Index Astartes articles, dunno if the recent Horus Heresy books say anything about it, but it's pretty clear Horus and Abaddon had a special relationship echoing that between the Emperor and his Primarchs.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, latest edition, p46.

"It is rumoured that Abaddon may have been a clone-son of Horus himself, a direct creation of the primarch's geneseed."

This has been part of Abaddon's write-up since second edition, and long pre-dates the Horus Heresy series.

Void__Dragon wrote:

sirrah wrote:It's strongly suggested that Abaddon is a clone of Horus

Where is this suggested?

He resembles Horus, but many of the Luna Wolves did, their gene-seed had a quirk that resulted in many of the Legion turning out to resemble Horus, such a Marine was called a "Son of Horus."

youre thinking of titles like "little horus" ?

The ones resembling Horus were called "true sons" in the latest HH book, Age of Darkness.

morgendonner wrote:The primarchs are described as being about twice the size of a space marine [...]

Let me guess, some BL novel with a random author having funny ideas again?

I'm quite sure it'd be somewhat impractical if a Primarch would be unable to go into battle with his troops due to having issues getting his 14-feet-body into a transport.

Huh, I missed the rumor that Abaddon is a clone of Horus in my read of the Chaos Marines codex somehow. Sounds weird though, considering how buttmad the idea of cloning Horus go the Black Legion.

1hadhq wrote:youre thinking of titles like "little horus" ?

The ones resembling Horus were called "true sons" in the latest HH book, Age of Darkness.

I am not thinking of guys like "Little Horus" Aximand.

Abaddon, Aximand, and Tordaggon are all mentioned to be "Sons of Horus," in that they physically resemble their primarch, whereas Loken did not.