Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, been getting back into Fantasy, and breaking out the old Druchii, looking over the new models and trying to figure out which I should invest in. I already own Morathi (two versions, actually) and Shadowblade (and Beastmaster Rakarth, not that that matters anymore), and love both of them, probably my favorite characters, but I'm looking at the others and trying to figure out if they're worth using.

Executioners are one of my favorite units; is Tullaris worth using, or does he not gain enough over just a Draichmaster to be worth the excess points? Hoping on this one, as I have plans for a conversion for him.

Lokhir Felheart? I plan on using Corsairs for the bulk of my melee troops, though it might be worth leading one group with him but he seems like he's a lot of points.

Kouran? Unbreakable is nice, but does it matter much when they're already Stubborn? And does having magic armor really matter for a Champion? Or only in a challenge?

Not a huge fan of Hellebron, but a friend might be doing a Witch Elf thing, so might as well find out what people think of her too.

Malekith? I feel like if I want a great spellcaster I'll take his mother. I suppose it could be nice for if I can't decide between a sorceress and a close-combat general...

Malus Darkblade seems like he might be okay for running around with his sword unleashed hunting things down. Unsure if I'd want him to lead a unit of Cold One Knights, though, since he'd either hurt his allies or have to keep his sword sheathed.

I expect the answer to most of these will end up being "you can custom-make a generic character better", but they're flavorful and it'd at least be nice to figure out which ones are just plain bad before I try them out.

Malus is a pretty freaking cool character(at least fluffwise).

The Chronicles of Malus Darkblade is one of the best WFB series I've ever read.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Malus is a pretty freaking cool character(at least fluffwise).

The Chronicles of Malus Darkblade is one of the best WFB series I've ever read.

Indeed. Still need to read half of those.

The DE named characters are all overpriced for what they bring to the table. Only 3 are even worth bothering with - occasionally - and even then they are kinda suboptimal.

Take Malekith, for example. For his price, you can get an Unkillable Dreadlord and a Level 4 caster, and it's much more liklely the Dread is going to survive the game. Morethai can be replaced with a Dark peggie Level 4 for quite a few less points.

Hellebron, at least, has a use. She is pretty much essential for a dedicated Khainite list, allowing your Witches to come out of core points instead of competing with Executioners for special points. Even then, she is quite fragile for her points and tends to die easily.

Malus Darkblade can be used to beef up a unit of COK, but then that makes the unit a priority target for magic/warmachines.

Shadowblade has one - only one - use where he will be worth his points. He can be used to assassinate Teclis in a HE Phoenix Guard/Baner of the World Dragon deathstar.

The named Champions (Tullaris and Kouran) are absolutely worthless. T3 single wound 5+ armor save models that can be singled out and are worth 100 points each just die in the first round of combat.

Vulcan wrote:Unkillable Dreadlord and a Level 4 caster

Unkillable?

Vulcan wrote:The named Champions (Tullaris and Kouran) are absolutely worthless. T3 single wound 5+ armor save models that can be singled out and are worth 100 points each just die in the first round of combat.

They can be singled out? I thought they counted as Champions, and thus could not? Or do you mean via challenge?
And that's really a shame, I was going to convert a great Tullaris.

Any model with a different statline can be singled out in close combat. And all champions have an extra attack (or an extra point of BS for shooty champions). Ergo, they can be singled out.

The Unkillable Dreadlord is the common name for a Dreadlord build involving maximum armor save (either heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, and a mount or the Armor of Darkness), the Pendant of Khaleth, and the Crown of Command. It becomes VERY hard to lay any wounds on this build (low S has a hard time getting past the high armor save; high strength triggers the high ward save) and with the Crown of Command he can statistically be expected to hold for 6 full combat rounds without breaking (Stubborn Ld 10) - 12 rounds with BSB support.

So he becomes the tarpit that DE generally lack; you throw him at the biggest threat and pin it in place for the rest of the game. The rest of your army can mop up the rest of his army, and then you can decide if you want to combo-charge to bail out the Dread, or just go full avoidance in case the Dread gets unlucky.

Hellebron is pretty much the only one I consider worth her salt. That has more to do with making the ladies core than anything else though.

Hellebron's the most useful of the bunch, Witch elves are great, even better when they can be taken as core.
She also brings S10 which DE usually lack, though she die pretty easily in melee.

None of the special characters are worth using for DE.

Malekith - vastly overpriced. It's putting two lords together without twice as much killing power or twice as much survivability.

Morathi - overpriced bad mage. Can't take PoK for 2+ ward save. Has to buy utterly useless magic weapons and costs 220 points too much.

Hellebron - no survivability and massive price tag.

Lokhir - incredibly overpriced for mediocre stats.

Malus - overpriced and only good in combat if he unleashes his blade which gives him a 50% chance to kill a friendly knight every turn he's not stuck in. Can get a dreadlord with 7 attacks and PoK's ward save for the price of malus with no risky gimmicks

Shadowblade - always super risky and super expensive. Usually safer to spend those 300 points on a durable super mage or a durable super soldier.

Kouran 75 points for 3 S6 attacks when the unit champ can buy the same weapon and get the same 3 S6 attacks for 52 points.

Tullaris - also costs 71 points more than a unit champ without anything much gained from it.

In short - the guy who created DE special characters sucked at point costing.

Really a shame. Love the lore on many of those.
Maybe I'll make some custom characters, even if they don't get special rules.

Thanks for the help, all.

As an aside, I don't suppose we have any good ideas on the order of the Army Books being redone? Is it going to be years before Dark Elves get an update?

Last I read, there are like 6 or 7 armies that will get a new book before Dark Elves.

(Rightly so, DE rulebook isn't really in need of anything. Good characters, good units, good rare choices.)

TheBloodGod wrote:None of the special characters are worth using for DE.

Malekith - vastly overpriced. It's putting two lords together without twice as much killing power or twice as much survivability.

Morathi - overpriced bad mage. Can't take PoK for 2+ ward save. Has to buy utterly useless magic weapons and costs 220 points too much.

Hellebron - no survivability and massive price tag.

Lokhir - incredibly overpriced for mediocre stats.

Malus - overpriced and only good in combat if he unleashes his blade which gives him a 50% chance to kill a friendly knight every turn he's not stuck in. Can get a dreadlord with 7 attacks and PoK's ward save for the price of malus with no risky gimmicks

Shadowblade - always super risky and super expensive. Usually safer to spend those 300 points on a durable super mage or a durable super soldier.

Kouran 75 points for 3 S6 attacks when the unit champ can buy the same weapon and get the same 3 S6 attacks for 52 points.

Tullaris - also costs 71 points more than a unit champ without anything much gained from it.

In short - the guy who created DE special characters sucked at point costing.

They werent created for 8th, back in 7th some of them were decent.

Jackster wrote:They werent created for 8th, back in 7th some of them were decent.

I wish they still did Chapter Approved. Would be great for updating old characters along with adding new stuff. Things like the rules for alternate types of Hydras were always neat. And made White Dwarf something other than an expensive ad.

Malus is good if you have bigger and more threatening models to draw fire (say, 3 Hydras or something like that )

Spites lack of stupidity rule means you have a reliable and controllable unit of cold one knights. Get them into a position where they should be able to get into combat every round through pursuits or overruns (so ideally the flank of an enemy line) and unleash Tz'arkan. They now have a S5 T5 Frenzied Elf with a weapon that allows no armour saves and re-rolls to wound punching through their flank with a unit of good shock cavalry whose Fear will give them a good edge against low LD units and occasionally high LD units as no one is immune to unlucky rolls

The only thing he's missing is a backup save in the form of a ward or regen save. From his fluff (Malus Darkblade novels) Tz'arkan does allow him to regenerate (in one book he survives and heals having a sword run through his shoulder) so maybe when they get round to redoing the Dark Elf army book we'll see a more survivable Malus

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:

Jackster wrote:They werent created for 8th, back in 7th some of them were decent.

I wish they still did Chapter Approved. Would be great for updating old characters along with adding new stuff. Things like the rules for alternate types of Hydras were always neat. And made White Dwarf something other than an expensive ad.

lol, looks like they took your advice, look at VC updates

A Town Called Malus wrote:Malus is good if you have bigger and more threatening models to draw fire (say, 3 Hydras or something like that )

Spites lack of stupidity rule means you have a reliable and controllable unit of cold one knights. Get them into a position where they should be able to get into combat every round through pursuits or overruns (so ideally the flank of an enemy line) and unleash Tz'arkan. They now have a S5 T5 Frenzied Elf with a weapon that allows no armour saves and re-rolls to wound punching through their flank with a unit of good shock cavalry whose Fear will give them a good edge against low LD units and occasionally high LD units as no one is immune to unlucky rolls

The only thing he's missing is a backup save in the form of a ward or regen save. From his fluff (Malus Darkblade novels) Tz'arkan does allow him to regenerate (in one book he survives and heals having a sword run through his shoulder) so maybe when they get round to redoing the Dark Elf army book we'll see a more survivable Malus

Is the sea dragon cloak from the FaQ/Errata not good enough for you.

Is the sea dragon cloak from the FaQ/Errata not good enough for you.

Nope

TheBloodGod wrote:
Malus - overpriced and only good in combat if he unleashes his blade which gives him a 50% chance to kill a friendly knight every turn he's not stuck in. Can get a dreadlord with 7 attacks and PoK's ward save for the price of malus with no risky gimmicks

The thing is, you only get 1 PoK per army.
I don't think 7 S4 attacks is all that comparable to 4 S5 with no save and re-rolls to wound, at Init 9.
If you're taking an unkillable dread lord, or just putting the PoK on your sorceress lord, then having Malus can work.
With a 7" + swift strider charge, it isn't tough to stay in combat once you release the sword. If you've got an opponent that flees the charge and flees the redirect, you're making 2 units run per turn, at the cost of 29 point knights.

Lokhir is hit and miss. If he's worth it complete comes down to his Merciless Slaver Rule. 4+ armor and Regen is decent, leaping to the corner of a wide unit to minimize attacks against him really helps too. Surviving doesn't seem to be the problem; it is just a matter of winning combat, and catching the enemy.


-Matt

I think a lot of old Heroes are overpriced because back in 7ths you cant run lords under 2k and these guys are somewhat stronger than most average heroes so they charge a premium for it.

It isn't Malus' sword which makes him go psycho on his own unit, it's the daemon trapped inside him. So you still get his re-rolls to wound and no armour saves without risking killing your own unit.

Just a small fluff detail but some people reading this might get confused

You can save unleashing Tz'arkan (and getting the stat bonuses and frenzy) until you want to.

you could use rakarths model for a dreadlord on dragon.

JohnnoM wrote:you could use rakarths model for a dreadlord on dragon.

I could indeed.
Though I just broke down and bought the new one. Because it looks amazing.