Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi. I encounter some problems to win versus Grey Knights with Dark Eldar. In fact, i faced them four, and got wiped out four too.

I usually play Wyches in Raider, like 40 or more, three Ravagers, but Grey Knights just eat me in CC.

Should I play Incubi, in Raiders or Venoms, or Kabalits/Trueborn with lots of Blasters, or Hellions, and always use "Hit and Run" rule ?
I tried Reavers once, but it didn't worked well. Maybe I just played them badly ?

What do you think ?

Lots and lots of shots. Venoms eat their infantry. Ravagers eat their tanks. Stay 24" away from them, and your fine. Kill their psyrifledreads first, as they pop out transports like tomatoes.

Well, I'd play a shooty army with some counter-strike units. Dark lances and splinter cannons have a longer range than the usual GK weapons like psycannons or storm bolters. In this way, it should be possible by redeploying to keep the enemy at arm's length.

1) "Pure" Grey Knights are, for the most part, limited to 24" weaponry. Staying over 30" away from most things is a good idea, and with DE having 36" weaponry, it works out well.
2) Use your speed to overload one side. This goes along with #1. You're going to end up within 24" of something. Make sure it is just one or two things, and not everything. It's much better to have everything on one side (even if it is the "wrong" side) than to have everything in the middle.
3) If you must get into combat, don't fight fair. Use multiple units of Wyches against them if necessary, or at least thin the numbers significantly before you charge. It also depends on the drug roll and the current game situation. In all the games I've had against GKs, only once have I sent a single DE unit into assault against another, and it was a Strike Squad.

I have no clue why people always say "just stay 24 inches away."

1) Most of the DE transport killing (other than the Psyflemen) on the first few turns will come from Psybacks, which each average 0.6 pens on an armor 10 vehicle with a flickerfield. These have a 36" range and staying far away won't help against these.

2) Even if he has no psybacks, DE shoot from 36" away. That means that by rolling up 12" in a vehicle and then disembarking 2", the GK will be in range.

Personally, if you get second turn TRY to stay 42" away.

If you go first try to flat out move to one side of his forces and TRY to take them on piecemeal or surround his transports to auto-kill the units inside.

I think the best thing to do (in objective missions) is to try
to go for a draw. If you go for a win you may overextend and end up losing. But by just trying to stall the game (hiding behind LoS blocking terrain, etc) you can just turbo onto several objectives, or if he tries to spread out onto too many objectives, you can try to pick off units one at a time while avoiding the rest of his army.

Its very tough but doable.

Incubi won't work against GK, not at all. Wyches are better if you have to have CC. Try and take out one piece at a time. Much like eldar do isolate destroy, isolate destroy. Take out anything with extreme range. Razorbacks, psyriflemen. Anything else should need to get closer. Once the heavy hitters are out pop a trasnport with the most dangerous thing in it, whether these are paladins or whatever. While your venoms work on that go to work on the next transport. Stunned and Shaken don't really work so leave the haywire blaster at home. Wyches work more as a speed bump to slow them down.
Basically make them come to you and engage only part of the enemy at a time. Most DE players don't like to sit still but sometimes you need to to bait the trap. Volume of fire will be your friend.

A lorra whoosh, a lorra boom, a good amount zap, and a whole lot more dakka

kitch has his the nail on the head

Dark Eldar can't kill Grey Knights, they are too tough. Any Grey Knights models removed from gameplay are actually knocked unconscious or sleeping - check the rule book dood, out of game does not equal dead.

Stavkat wrote:Dark Eldar can't kill Grey Knights, they are too tough. Any Grey Knights models removed from gameplay are actually knocked unconscious or sleeping - check the rule book dood, out of game does not equal dead.

That just means they're taken live back to the arenas of the Wych Cults or dungeons of the Haemonculus Covens.

Those "knocked unconscious" Grey Knights are up for a fate worse than death if the Dark Eldar actually win, you are aware of that, right?

Hell, any Archon would likely sacrifice half a Kabal to get hold of even one normal Grey Knight! I think the dex says something that DE love to take SM prisoners, as their higher toughness etc makes them much more fun to break etc... Imagine what they'd do to the elite of the elites elte!

Witzkatz wrote:Those "knocked unconscious" Grey Knights are up for a fate worse than death if the Dark Eldar actually win, you are aware of that, right?

Wait what? Are they forced into playing a Dark Eldar army in the game Warhammer 40k?

OH SNAP!


Ok, I'll stop now.

On a serious note, I've been thinking about this. I actually just got out of bed to write this, hope you appreciate that. Lol.

What have you fielded against your opponent (roughly) so far?

I'm thinking that a Haemonculus led force is the way to go. That way you can unlock wracks as troops, and either:

a) load up on lots of small 3 man wrack squads and multi attack individual units for less points (with a flamer per squad)

or

b) take some very small wrack units just to fulfil the 2 troops requirement, and then stock up on Trueborn with blasters and scourges with haywires and dark lances.

Talos / Cronos for heavy hitters... If taking these then definitely give your Haemy a web way portal, otherwise you'll spend half the battle just crossing the board. The following thought can be fine tuned by someone with more gaming experience than I, but I'm seeing extra CCW Talos and a razorwing. Or maybe 0 talos + 2 r'wings - let those missiles fly!

I have a feeling that small squads in venoms are the way to go. Divide, over power, annihilate.

Thoughts anyone?

Besides the fact that Wracks have to be five to have a flamer, you mean attack them with 4-5 units, and then GK can unlaunch as many attacks they want on one unit, it's only 50 points. Right ?

Don't Talos are a bit suicidal ? With all those Nemesis weapons ?

I've fielded mostly wyches, as it's the list i usually run.

So, it would be something like that. 1495.

HQ : Haemonculus - HexRiffle (it usually work for me) - ShatterShard 80 (camping)
HQ : Haemonculus - WWP - Liquifier Gun 95 (1)
HQ : Haemonculus - Flesh Gauntlet - Vexantrope 80 (2)

Elits : 4 Grotesques - Aberration - Flesh Gauntlet 170 (2)

Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Raider - FF 130 (1)
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125

Heavy Support : Talos - Ichor 105
Heavy Support : Talos - Ichor 105
Heavy Support : Talos - Ichor 105

Initial thoughts are those grotesques will want a raider and one of the haemy's with them.

I think 3 talos is probably a bit much (ps, I dont know anything about nemesis weapons - whats the detail?). A cronos with vortex may be a good replacement, as every time you kill one model you get to dish out a pain token.

Have you thought about Urien Rakarth? Extra pain tokens to start with and you can increase the strength of those grotesques at 5pts a model?

On the Wracks, I wouldn't say to chuck that many units as one enemy squad, but definitely enough to catch them in a cross fire, cut off angles of retreat to auto kill if they fall back. Another consideration would be PGL's and TGL's to lower Ld values and remove attack buffs.

Nemesis Force Weapons are PW, and if a Psychic test is passed, they inflict Instant Death.

So. 1730. As i have two WWP, I should probably drop som Venom, and replace them by more Wracks.

HQ : Urien Rakarth 190 (1)
HQ : Haemonculus - HexRiffle - ShatterShard 80 (camping)
HQ : Haemonculus - WWP - Liquifier Gun 95 (2)
HQ : Haemonculus - WWP - Liquiifer Gun 95 (3)

Elits : 4 Grotesques - Augmented Strengh - Aberration - Flesh Gauntlet 190 (1)

Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Raider - FF 130 (2)
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Raider - FF 130 (3)
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125

HS : Talos - Ichor 105
HS : Talos - Ichor 105
HS : Cronos - Probe - Vortex 110

Grey Knights OWN Dark Eldar! I only speak the Truth

kitch102 wrote:Hell, any Archon would likely sacrifice half a Kabal to get hold of even one normal Grey Knight! I think the dex says something that DE love to take SM prisoners, as their higher toughness etc makes them much more fun to break etc... Imagine what they'd do to the elite of the elites elte!

They wouldnt, GKs are Psykers. Remember what happened to Baron Sathonyx?

DreadlordME! wrote:Grey Knights OWN Dark Eldar! I only speak the Truth

Played against 5 diff flavors of Grey Knight (4 in tourny, 1 friendly) and my DE tabled 'em all (see my sig).

Like the others told ya, move over to one flank and take out that part of the army. This hasn't failed me yet...

Although, truth be told... I've always gone first (so take that w/ grain of salt) as I'm fielding the Baron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arkon wrote:Nemesis Force Weapons are PW, and if a Psychic test is passed, they inflict Instant Death.

So. 1730. As i have two WWP, I should probably drop som Venom, and replace them by more Wracks.

HQ : Urien Rakarth 190 (1)
HQ : Haemonculus - HexRiffle - ShatterShard 80 (camping)
HQ : Haemonculus - WWP - Liquifier Gun 95 (2)
HQ : Haemonculus - WWP - Liquiifer Gun 95 (3)

Elits : 4 Grotesques - Augmented Strengh - Aberration - Flesh Gauntlet 190 (1)

Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Raider - FF 130 (2)
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Raider - FF 130 (3)
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125
Troops : 5 Wracks - Liquifier Gun - Venom - Second Splinter Cannon 125

HS : Talos - Ichor 105
HS : Talos - Ichor 105
HS : Cronos - Probe - Vortex 110

This list does seem interesting...

First turn, flat out one WWP haemy 24".
The second WWP haemy moves 12", haemy disembarks2" to drop the first WWP. Depending on deployment, you could be at mid table.
Second Turn... the previously flatted out WWP haemy moves 12", disembark 2 and dropst the second WWP that'll possible be fething deep in opponent's deployment zone.

Very nice...

One thing this list needs is a fully kitted out Beast Squad... especially this being a WWP army. The only thing lacking is really it doesn't have enough AT...

Ravagers with nightshields and FF love sitting back and shooting. My general advice is to use mobility to your advantage and hit the sides of their army. GK is not too difficult, and if you got a pesky Librarian casting all sorts of goodies, suicide a heamonculi to crucible him.

GK armies tough but its henchmen who really scare me. Death Cult assasins are much like Stealers vs wyches and if they got an inquisitor or techmarine with grenades, forget assaulting that unit and shoot shoot shoot it.

Jackster wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Hell, any Archon would likely sacrifice half a Kabal to get hold of even one normal Grey Knight! I think the dex says something that DE love to take SM prisoners, as their higher toughness etc makes them much more fun to break etc... Imagine what they'd do to the elite of the elites elte!

They wouldnt, GKs are Psykers. Remember what happened to Baron Sathonyx?

No, what's the story?

*Dramatic voice* Baron Sathonyx brought a warlock to Commorragh, and was cast out of high society for it, barely surviving the entire thing, his legacy in ruins! But he chose to reforge his destiny and rose as the Lord of the dregs, Lord Hellion!

...okay but seriously, it's forbidden to bring psykers to Commorragh.

So obviously the archon would simply torture the grey knights to death in a temporary realspace base before returning home with their wargear as trophies.



To contribute to the original discussion - I simply agree with everyone else, use the murderhole between 24 and 36 to harry them to death. Don't try haywire trickery, and for all that is holy don't bother with incubi, or if you have them anyway (TAC list, presumably), don't point them against halberd-users.

mynamelegend wrote:*Dramatic voice* Baron Sathonyx brought a warlock to Commorragh, and was cast out of high society for it, barely surviving the entire thing, his legacy in ruins! But he chose to reforge his destiny and rose as the Lord of the dregs, Lord Hellion!

...okay but seriously, it's forbidden to bring psykers to Commorragh.

Ahhhh yes, I remember now.

mynamelegend wrote:So obviously the archon would simply torture the grey knights to death in a temporary realspace base before returning home with their wargear as trophies

Bingo baby, some kind of field-torture-chamber, DE always find a way! *Evil laugh *

OP, when's your next game due? Interested in seeing what you run with and how it works out.

How to beat GK with DE?Better question would be how to lose to GK with DE!


Lance for their few vehicles,splinterspam to tackle those high T6 Dreadknights,Wyches to maul their guys.Just avoid Purifiers(tackle these from range),and don't go 1v1 with Paladins.

It appears as though most of this advice is, at best, half thought out and based partially, if not completely, on theory craft. "Stay outside of 24"" is terrible advice and nigh impossible to actually achieve on the table top. If you think that you can actually do this, good luck. Basic tactics for GK, with 24" range, is to hold the middle. The end. Guess what? That makes everything within 24" range. Okay, your plan has just failed. Good work. Now deal with >50 psycannon shots per turn, purifiers, and psyker blast templates, not to mention all those chimera. Next list, Libby terminator spam with any vehicle that has that deepstrike upgrade. Storm Raven flies up, doesnt matter if it gets blown up, then the libby pulls units across the board to accomplish the same thing. Your 24" range plan has just failed again. Ummmmmm. . .Almost every GK list takes >3 psyfledreds. Guess what. . .that has 48" range. Typically, they score 3 pens per vehicle hit and ignore 1/3 of the damage table. Again, your theory craft has died terribly. I'll stop beating the dead horse here.

You can beat GK. I'm 50/50 with wins, and frankly I've only beaten henchmen, Mordrak termis, and standard gk with dread knights. None of these are really the most comp builds. The absolute worst I've faced have been Paladin blocks, massed Purgation/Psyker spam (this gentleman went something like (w/d/l) 16/1/3 in a vassal ladder tournament, this list is not to be trifled with. He nearly tabled a Tyranid mixed horde army in the second turn, and didnt need to fire in the first to do so, just by controlling the middle.) and Purifier massed Dred spam. Never going first in the former three games has seen me picked apart and mauled with great ease. Against these armies, you must get first turn and focus on one side, then brace yourself for extreme casualties. Then you pray you can do enough damage to continue to an eventual and narrow victory. Yes, I'm cynical. I f#cking hate GK with an extreme passion.

Incubi are useless against GK because of halberds and hammer hands, you'll be striking second, they'll hit/ wound on a 4+ 2+ with many attacks. The best hope you have in CC against most gk are Archons and Vect.