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So I played my first game recently and had a lot of fun. Lol, beat down some skaven.

I have a few question that I am not sure about:

Treason of Tzeentch: can it be cast on a unit in cc?
Infernal gateway: does a unit have to be in my forward arc to be targeted?
Hellcannon: can it move and fire?

Thanx in advance!

I can answer number 3: A hellcannon cannot move and fire. It was added to the WoC FAQ:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1780264a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_V1_4.pdf

Q. Can the Hellcannon move and fire? (p66)
A. No.

Can it pivot and fire is not as clear. See a thread I started on that here.

To be safe, I plan to be playing that it cannot pivot and fire. This reminds me that I need to check with the TO of an event I'm heading to at the end of the month and see how they're planning to play it...

Interestingly, in the FAQ it says it can fire even if the dwarf crew are killed. I didn't realize that!

I don't know the answer to your first 2 questions off-hand, I'll try to check later. I believe it's "No" for #1 (a direct damage spell needs to specifically say it can be cast into combat to do so), and #3 would depend on whether the spell says "in the caster's LOS" or just "within 24"".

Interestingly, in the FAQ it says it can fire even if the dwarf crew are killed. I didn't realize that!

Remember it has to pass its leadership test each turn. When the Dwarves are alive, its likely to pass the test, when the dwarves are gone, its likely to fail (LD 4). Should the Dwarves die, you could still fire provided you don't rampage.

As far as Treason of Tzeentch, the spell states "target one unegaged enemy unit". That means you cannot cast that spell on a unit in CC.

Gateway states that you just pick a unit within 24" of the caster. Casting restrictions are different in 8th as they were in 7th. Page 31 of the BRB states that all unique spells from older army books will have the casting restrictions laid out in them. I believe you do not have to choose a unit that is within your forward arc.

With the release of the Tomb Kings book, its clear that GW intends to change most spells so they fall into the 5 categories listed in the BRB. We will just have to wait until each codex gets a new release to see the changes.

Nice, very comprehensive. Thanks for the tip about the dwarfs, although I guess if my general were nearby it could use his leadership. I might actually prefer it to rampage that late in a game, though!

Lehnsherr wrote:Gateway states that you just pick a unit within 24" of the caster. Casting restrictions are different in 8th as they were in 7th. Page 31 of the BRB states that all unique spells from older army books will have the casting restrictions laid out in them. I believe you do not have to choose a unit that is within your forward arc.

Unfortunately, that argument also allows Gateway to also be cast into combat.....

I thought it needed a special provision to be cast into combat? Is that now outdated...

Unfortunately, that argument also allows Gateway to also be cast into combat.....

Oh I realize what that means for Gateway. I also realize how many other spells are now fudged because of that one line in the BRB. It is there though, and I don't believe I have taken it out of context within its paragraph either.

Frankly, the updated codices can't come fast enough. Each lore will get an attribute, and all spells should be classified as to fit within the framework of the types of spells. I am sure there will be exceptions, but those will likely be spelled out with the line in the BRB in mind.

The current spells were written with the 7th rules in mind, and 8th kinda made a mess of magic in terms of clearly written rules for all spells.

The only 2 spell types that are in the old books and the BRB, I believe, are magic missiles and direct damage. Everything else is kinda floating around. Some spells function like hexes, some like augments, and some are just out there all together.

Yep, they stuffed up - they probably meant "any other restrictions...." as opposed to "any restrictions", such that the basic restricitons / requirements on casting would still be followed.

So just to be clear, what spells from old books CANNOT be cast into combat...? Only ones that specifically say they cannot?

That's pretty crazy...

I don't think thats the intention of GW at all RI.

The entire ruleset of Fantasy (and 40k) are permissive rulesets. The line on page 31 changes the magic section of fantasy from permissive to restrictive. Its highly unlikely this was how it was intended to play out.

"Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books, do not have a type - their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

As Nos pointed out, the word "additional" should probably have been inserted in there.

Granted this is directly contradicted within the same heading in the BRB. In the bolded section of the "Choosing a Target" it says "However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:" and it then goes on to list the restrictions.

So unless otherwise stated, the older books will have to follow the restrictions, BUT older books don't have a type and their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply. Either those 2 paragraphs were written by 2 different people, or the person writing it was doing so after an all nighter.

RiTides wrote:So just to be clear, what spells from old books CANNOT be cast into combat...? Only ones that specifically say they cannot?

That's pretty crazy...

Pretty much, and the ones that actually have the Magic Missile spell type.

/1 year and counting waiting for a FAQ

RiTides wrote:ITo be safe, I plan to be playing that it cannot pivot and fire. This reminds me that I need to check with the TO of an event I'm heading to at the end of the month and see how they're planning to play it...

the hellcannon can pivot on the spot when firing just like a normal stone thrower even though it's a monster

@Lehnsherr
The two paragraphs both apply. How does that work? you ask. It means the spells in the 7th Ed army books work just like they did in 7th. Obviously the consequences of said spells may have changed but what the rules are saying is that there are some restrictions that apply to all spells and there are some that apply to the 5 types. If you dont have a type you pretty much wind up playing as 7th Ed targeting.
Also gateway specifically says you cant cast it into combat. Most 7th ed spells do.

Nowhere in infernal gateway's description does it state it can't be cast into combat, hence my question. Treason of tzeentch specifically states that it must be cast upon an unengaged unit, whereas gateway only states the target must be within 24".

The two paragraphs both apply. How does that work? you ask. It means the spells in the 7th Ed army books work just like they did in 7th. Obviously the consequences of said spells may have changed but what the rules are saying is that there are some restrictions that apply to all spells and there are some that apply to the 5 types. If you dont have a type you pretty much wind up playing as 7th Ed targeting.
Also gateway specifically says you cant cast it into combat. Most 7th ed spells do.

Well, I am not sure how you could play with 7th ed targetting. The rule would have to be in the 8th ed book, or the coinciding army book, if its not in either, then it won't apply. The wording in the BRB is pretty straight forward (while at the same time being confusing).

If you do not have a type, then your spell description will contain all casting restrictions that apply. We look at Gateway, and see that it does not have one of the 5 types in the BRB. That means, the way they have worded those 2 paragraphs, that only the text in Gateway will contain restrictions for it.

Gateway also does not specifically say anything about being cast into combat. In 7th you didn't need to, as you couldn't cast into combat unless you were specifically allowed to. In 8th, they have changed it up to spell types, and each of those types has certain rules that coincide. Gateway does not fit into one of those types, and with no restrictions in the text itself for Gateway, we are left with a spell that can pretty much be cast anywhere, anytime.

Do I personally think this was the intention of GW? No. However the way they worded that sentence about "unique" spells, has resulted in this confusion.

Now had they put in the word "additionally" then you would be right in that both paragraphs now apply, and all restrictions in the BRB are to be followed with ADDITIONAL restrictions laid out in the codicies. Thats not how they worded it though, hence why people are hoping for a change.

**Edit**

Just to be clear Leith, I think the way you play it is probably the best way to do so for now. Include those basic casting restrictions on all spells, and then additional ones if they are in the codex. That seems like what GW was trying to say (RAI, I know) they just failed to say it in the actual rules.