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Hello there. As we sage gurus of the internet decree, certain units are suboptimal, or Just Plain Bad. Thus I am bored and felt like starting ranting about making those misbegotten units we know and love work for us.

Orks in particular are an army known for several things: Cheap walkers, cheap infantry, annoyingly durable vehicles, and having lousy internal balance. Do I take Lootas or Tankbustas, Kans or Flash Gitz, Rokkit Warbuggies or Stormboyz? While certain folks may say "you just don't know how to use Zogwort!" certain units just more readily fill checkboxes for an army.

So let's run down the checkboxes, shall we? Note that I am a 2000-point guy so most stuff is coming from that perspective.

Tankbustas:
They have a goodly share of issues. They compete slotwise with Lootas, Glory Hogs screws them over, giving them a ride allots into your Heavy Support (less Battlewagons)...

Were I to run them, I would run two units. In turn, I would run two Battlewagons with Red Paint Job, Killcannon, Boarding Plank, Deffrolla, and Ard Case (yes, Ard Case.) In turn, for Troops, 2 units of Trukkboyz (the Trukks get Rams/Big Shootas) with Klaw Nob. Now, what we'll do is some creative ride-swapping, with the Trukkers getting the Wagons, the Tankbustas getting the Trukks. Granted, this is pretty top-heavy at 844 points base (another 30 for the Bomb Squigs) but you're Orks. If you can afford Ghaz and a distributed Nobstar, you can afford this as a core. The beauty of this is you're getting two scoring transports, with a fair bit of Ordnance to boot. The problems with Trukkboyz being fragile are mostly negated in that they can either stay aboard to plank stuff, or defensively countercharge or sweep weakened units. The issues with running Tankbusta wagons are negated in that you can run the Trukks from behind and mostly assure LOS to what you want, and use any part of the hull to release Bomb Squigs. And if you roll a 1? Better you lose a Trukk than a Wagon.

There are other options to help support this core, but first you need more vehicles to help protect. Warbuggies are a must, for mobile Rokkits, and to roadblock against Melta threat vectors. The KFF Mek (or two) are similarly nice. Besides that, you could run a 3rd Tankbusta/Trukkboy/Killwagon teamup (or swap the Tankbustas for a Battlewagon Nob unit, giving said Nobs the 3rd Trukk and buying a 20-strong Boy unit), etc. One way or another, you sacrifice range for mobility and the potential to disable multiple vehicles in a given turn. Other options include:
-Static Support: Run 2 Deffdreads w/ Big Shootas, a KFF Mek, a Shokk Attack Mek optionally and a Kannon Battery with Ammo Runts aplenty: Run the Dreads in defense of the Wagons, aiming for AT infantry or light armor that would normally flit away (stuff like Typhoons, Ravagers, etc). The SAG mek hangs with the Big Gunz, as they provide ranged support. Note that the SAG Mek can split fire from the Kannons, and take advantage of Runts to reroll scatter. Add a Loota unit and you should be mostly set.
-Cybork Kommandoes: The Killbusta core is very short-ranged. Another option is to threaten the opponent's deployment zone. For the 3rd Elite, Snikrot's Kommandoes (give them 2 Rokkit Launchas if they can shoot. I forget how Grotsnik affects that), Grotsnik for the 2nd HQ, and a Stormboy Mob for the 3rd Fast Attack, as well as a Boomwagon Heavy Support (Ard Top/Ram: Place it in reserve if going first). Grotsnik joins the Kommandoes. Basically, force the enemy to castle and punish accordingly. An alternate option if you want to set the world on fire is a second Mek, with Burna and optional Mega Armor. Flush the foe out one way or another.
-Zogwort's Bodyguard: Run Zogwort, a small Nob unit (give them the banner and Dok though) with open Wagon and two Ammo Runt/Kombirokkits. Give their ride to a Shootaboy unit while they run on foot. Yes, really. They should get cover, they are a melee beatstick, and randomly screw your opponent over. Optionally add a Bike Fast Attack unit to support Zogwort's unit should it get stranded.
-The Aporcalypse: Wazdakka as your 2nd HQ, and several small Bike units (3 guys and a Klaw Nob, really). From what I've found, against most foes, you can run Wazzdakka solo, especially since should always have a 3+ cover). Or you could give him a small Nob Biker unit for buffing him. Or you could (if you only want 2 Bike Units) run a small Meganob unit in a wagon, and disembark them turn one for a 2+ save/Rokkit support while Wazdakka joins them to provide a T5 Sponge and Leadership 9 Bosspole.

One way or another, these are just general musings really. Any additional thoughts are worth it, as well. How would you run unit combos/setups that by most accounts should not work?

Instead of just spouting off these nuggets of "wisdom"

Maybe you should try you ideas out and tell us how they did. Right when I read

Were I to run them

I kinda lost interest in this post.

So basically, your ideas, are to take all the units tourny player say are gak, and use them in ways that make them worse, only to have said tourny players say "I told you so" when some new Ork player tries it out and fails hard? Im scratching my head at alot of what you said.

First things first. So your saying that for just under 900 points, your CORE army will be 2 trukks, 20 tank bustas, 2 BW WITH Ard Case even, and a total of 22 boyz and 2 pk nobz? For only 900 points? Unless your incredibly lucky or playing a completely new player, that wont fly at any points game, but 2000? Almost half your army is that? If your not tabled by the end of turn 2, Id congratulate you. 2 Trukks is just a no go period. The only time that would work, is if you hold them back in reserves and hope they dont pop out until everything is in CC, I do soemthing similar with smaller nobz units in smaller point games, Ill stick them in a trukk and wait for a few turns to zip them in there. It works great, but the way I just mentioned, isnt half your force. 2 BW with Ard case? And a Killkannon? Why the Kill kannon? You either move and use the plank, the killkannon is wasted. If you sit and fire the kannon, the plank is wasted. So whats the point? Ard case doesnt make sense either. That IMO is only used on a Boomgun wagon, and thats it.

Rokkits in a kommando unit? Burnas. Burnas in a kommando unit, BS2 in a unit like the kommandos you dont waste the points on in that unit. I run rokkits in my boyz units, but they are not used like the kommandos are, kommandos are used to tie up back field units, hence burnas.

And a BigMek in mega armor? I just dont see it. If your going to take a Mega armored HQ, use the Warboss. I use a MegaBoss often and am VERY happy with the amount of ass kickery he can produce. Its not uncommon for him alone, to take out a couple SM units, or use his brute power to help boyz or burnas topple harder units. A MEgaBoss is a mini Ghazzy after all. A BigMek is only used for 2 things if you were to ask me, SAG or KFF. Mostly a KFF but the Ork in me just cant say no to the SAG.

I wont really comment on the bikes, I never use them. But using Wazdakka as a T5 sponge caught my eye. So your saying youd take a HQ slot, and waste it, to soak up attacks from a MegaNobz unit? Where did you come up with that one? Rather, why did you come up with that one? Waste an HQ, to keep MANz alive? Thats a new one. See Ive done the opposite a few times. Taken a couple MANz with a MegaBoss and gon HQ hunting. That way they are stuck with this dilemma
Do I try to kill off the Boss? Or do I try to kill of the MANz? Because either option, will leave their HQ unit dead.

I dont mean to come off harsh, but wow. Ive rarely seen someone write so many "Why would you do that?" on here. And worst of all, you didnt say anything about the FlashGits besides the first mention in your post. That makes me unhappy

Agree to KC and General Chaos. Take your funky "revolutionary" ideas and place them onto the gaming board. You will see quickly why those ideas aren't used at all. There really is not point in musing over random things that might or might not work.
Build a list, go to you LGS and have a few games with that idea, and get results.

But for your ideas in detail:
Killkannon BWs are bad. Really bad. Not because of mathhammer, but because I tried it. Used three BWs with killkannon moving forwards a firing support, had them sitting on objectives or used them as transports for small units. All of that is nonsense. I even have an extra turret for three of my BW, allowing me to use a kannon and a killkannon at once. Looks awesome, does nothing. Makes you really wish we could you two kannons on one weagon.
You spend 60 points on a gun that isn't effective at killing anything well outside of MEQ, and turn the best transport in the game into a bad razorback. Not to mention makeing it even worse by spending 15 points on 'ard case.
If you want a dakkawagon, go for 4 big shootas and a kannon. That's going to kill more than your killkannon at a greater range and less points. Add shootazboyz with big shootaz or tankbustaz for ultimate dakka mayhem. Still not great, but at least goes up to the likes of warpheads, stormboyz or deff dreads.

For less than 900 points you can get ten diversified nob bikers and a warboss on a bike. You can get ghazghkull thrakka and nine MANz in a battlewagon. You can get 100 boyz and a KFF mek. You can get nine kanz, 40 boyz and a kff mek. You can get 45 lootaz. You can get Wazzdakka and 24 warbikers. You can get three battlewagons with two units of boyz and one of burnaz/tankbustaz.
How does your army core of two suicide trukks containing 250 point units and two close to useless battlewagons hold a straw to any of those army cores? In short, it doesn't.

Static support:
A deff dread with two big shootaz hunting land speeder typhoons? Really? A fast skimmer sporting 48" double missile launchers it can shoot after moving 12"? Hunted by a walker?! Really, if you want to do an ork gunline, use boyz, not a close combat specialist dread.

Cybork Kommandoes:
With your tiny and overcosted core, even the imperial guard will try to charge you. Commandoz really won't do anything for you. Overcosted stormboyz which have no bws to hide behind won't really help with that.
Oh, and mega armored big meks belong in fluff games or a showcase, nowhere else, it's strictly inferior to a MA warboss.

Zogwort's Bodyguard:
On top of a 900 point army core(which was justified by not fielding nobz), field an expensive unit of nobz! On foot. I'm really musing at this point whether you were writing a satire.
Anyways, all your units GTA'ing each others ride will end in disaster if you don't go first. Ordnance, missle launchers, and mortas will have a field day, as you are necessarily bunched up to pull that move. Not to mention that you nobz are going to die like flies, because the are instant-deathed by anything S8, 4+ cover won't save them, especially not against barrage.
Besides, why Zogwort? Random HQ choice is random. Just as random as adding bikes I guess.

The Aporcalypse:
Wazzdakka can't stay alone at all. Turbo-boost two deff kopta into enemy line. Watch what happens. Now think again how survivable a single 3+ cover model is.
Attaching a turbo-boosting IC with the ability to shoot while turbo-boosting to a unit of slow and purposeful models is about the most stupid thing I've ever heard in terms of army building.

All in all, I really can't tell if you are being serious about all this nonsense or trolling us.

Jidmah wrote:There really is not point in musing over random things that might or might not work.

Isn't that the point of the tactics forum? To discuss our ideas with others and have them either pat us on the back and agree or point out the flaws in what we said?

While I agree with the criticism toward the OP's ideas, I'm surprised at the tone of the criticism being directed his way. Certainly the tactics forum is for more than discussing over and over again the virtues of the best builds for each codex.

The point is random, not musing.

He is literally throwing darts at our codex and claims to have found new working armies.

Da boyz is good at whateva they'z do!

but seriusly a mega big mek? with Burna?

da orks is goodz at anyfing, buy not everyfing!

augustus5 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:There really is not point in musing over random things that might or might not work.

Isn't that the point of the tactics forum? To discuss our ideas with others and have them either pat us on the back and agree or point out the flaws in what we said?

While I agree with the criticism toward the OP's ideas, I'm surprised at the tone of the criticism being directed his way. Certainly the tactics forum is for more than discussing over and over again the virtues of the best builds for each codex.

Theres a big difference between discussing ideas of building army ideas and just throwing out incredibly terrible ideas. If he were to of said something like "Well I have an idea for a build, this is it *write what he wrote* how could I make this idea work? Now THAT is a great format for discussion. Saying it like he did, is just bad. I agree, I dont like talking about tourny builds, because its going to be a discussion of these builds in this order. BW spam/Kan Wall.....................then way down itll be speed freaks/horde, then even further down would be random junk.

So yea, the typical tourny builds poor the hell out of me. Thats why I like it when someone comes up with some ideas or a different style of build. I like trying to see how someone can best optimize his army, when the restrictions are "I only have these units, help me" But again, what the OP wrote, was neither. It was random ramblings of basically lets take the worst units in the codex, and make them even worse then before. And no FlashGits

Hello there.

These were for the semi-random ideas, some from prior experience, some from fighting as or against other armies.

To a certain extent, my original thoughts were more Guard-influenced. Something along the lines of "hey, so suppose I can claim objectives with Leman Russes," or "so I can take 5 Demovets and give them an open-topped transport?" Or "I can LOS block one corridor, and for the first few rounds force my opponent to deal with AV 14 or sidesnipe me?" I like Lootas, don't get me wrong, and I run two units standard, but there are limitations to them. That you only get 2 or 3 units maximum is the big one, especially if the opponent is running an MSU list. Their shooting is entirely static and a wily opponent will plan accordingly. Guess what Venoms/Valkyries/Dakkapreds will go for first? The Boyz (relatively harmless to vehicles, at least early on), or the units that can shoot back?

Tankbustas, if nothing else, threaten multiple vehicles. Be it the first release of Bombsquigs at different hullpoints of their vehicle in question (delicious stunlock), or to then ride out and assault a carlot, they can at least protect some against target overload.

@Cracker: Sometimes I want two Deff Dreads. Be it as "another hull" or support and countercharge. Thus, were I to take Snikrot, I wouldn't be able to take a Megaboss. Incidentally, one army I faced (and lost to. I feel dumb :3) at NoVa was a Ghaz tide that used Snikrot to escort a Bikeboss and Bigshoota Kommandos backfield to torrent vehicles in the rear/flush out small squad. After a round of munching my Lootas, that was that. The Boss easily could have split to do business as usual.

I've done ride-swapping in past games before. One of my personal favorite "stupid tricks" for example is the Battlewagon Railgun. You know how wagons are rather large? By using a wagon to embark/disembark units at opposing ends of the hull, you can increase the speed of your units beyond the normal "I'm in a transport, shenanigans. So as the game goes on and I find myself down a Wagon, usually I have one Wagon doing "transport" duty for two Shootaboy mobs who repeatedly swap passenger seats (To be specific, Shootamob A disembarks from a front corner of the wagon, moves 6" forward, shootamob B embarks from the rear corner, then the wagon advances, either 7 or more. I've had *fun* doing this). By contrast, creative ridejacking from the first turn is rather tame (and there are enough cases where it's a part of armydesign anyway: Guard with Special Weapon Squads stand out as a key example.)

@Jidmah: I've had success with Ard Case wagons as dedicated Deffrollas, with Grots inside as DAVU scoring. For the list I was running a good while ago, I found it worked for it let me run said wagons semi-independently while I used Buggies and Boyz to control objectives in turn.

I've run Killwagons before, and the thing is I've found is they "work." Yes, 5th ed=Mechcoverhammer, but I've found that there are still some situations where having a mobile AP 3 shot will be an advantage, if only to control movement routes after the opponent suffers an initial carpark, or that I can follow up on units being most-bunched following loss/disembarkment from a transport.

I've run Kans as general fire support/countercharge for awhile now. That's actually my current army setup: 2 Shootawagons (one jacked from a Nob unit. Originally I was running 2 min-strength MAN units as pseudokans then decided on "just one" for demolition duty.) 2 min-strength Loota units, and 2 Kan units as "armored Lootas" so to speak. Still have the KMBs modeled though in retrospect, I am giving them Big Shootas instead. Cheaper, and it lets me torrent backfield infantry or temporarily disable light armor more reliably. 42" threat range across two AV 11 squadrons is usually "enough" to box in lighter elements...

Wazdakka is Toughness 5. He can eat a few Meltas/missiles. Lists where running him in a squad solo (Venomspam/Sternguard) are an exception I've found.

As for footnobz...it's something I want to test. Again, I did pseudokan Meganobz but what I found was that in practice, the only way for them to draw fire was if I rammed them down the enemy's throat. This meant melta and some Lascannons, Autocannons/Missiles going to the Kans/Buggies like normal. This is one reason I've been lurking more on YMDC and the listthreads but I am interested in testing a Zogwort retinue. Something to draw fire or be a target while it slung spells or an opportune Kombirokkit salvo.

...Yeah.

See, if you add some reasoning to it, it looks much less like throwing darts

The big problem here, is not playing orks like orks. If repeatedly seen my friends picking up my orks and failing to effectively do anything well with them, simply because they applied their army's logic to ork. Orks work different from any other army (except maybe DE), so applying Marine or IG logic will set you up for failure.

"hey, so suppose I can claim objectives with Leman Russes,"

Battlewagons are not leman russes. Leman russ have great weapons, with either huge range or devastating S and AP and may even shoot a great secondary weapon in addition. The killkannon wagon has neither, for more points, and you may not shoot anything else.
The leman russ is a battletank, like the predator or the fire prism. Orks don't have a battletank.

"so I can take 5 Demovets and give them an open-topped transport?"

Actually tankbustas are much better than demovets. When I run them, they get their own battlewagon, which turns into a 24" bubble of vehicle annihilation - there are few vehicles which can take a volley of 12 rokkits and survive. It also pulverizes about any 'nid model happening to come into range - without that ridiculous killkannon. There are only three reasons for them to leave their battlewagon:
1) multi-assaulting vehicles
2) shooting a non-vehicle and using the bw as LoS block
3) the battlewagon got blown up
After you did either of the first two, you get back into the bw ASAP - you don't want anything to hit your 15 point boyz. If you release bomb-squigs from the outside, they shouldn't hit rear armor either.
That's why putting them in a trukk is a really bad idea. A trukk will only ever survive against a skilled player if there are still other trukks left to shoot. If you field two trukks with 250 points of anti-tank inside, guess whats going to die before its passengers fire a single shot.
Not to mention that the trukk model makes it close to impossible to block LoS for the tank bustaz.

"I can LOS block one corridor, and for the first few rounds force my opponent to deal with AV 14 or sidesnipe me?"

My opponents are always forced to shoot AV14 with a 4+ cover for the first two rounds, save for a vendetta or falcon that escaped the lootaz' lead storm. Then my battlewagons deff rolla whatever is in front of them and orks jump out and starts smashing stuff. Afterwards I really don't care what happens to the battlewagons, if they focus their gunz on them, my orks aren't getting shot. If you don't leave your opponent breathing room, he won't have the time to pick three or four battlewagons appart. Gunlines and mech-armies usually have to decide whether to stop a deff rolla or move away from it. If they lose the gamble, the spiky barrel is going to hit something.
The battlewagon's job is to get a green payload into the enemy's line and wreck a vehicle on their way there, everything afterwards is a nice bonus.

Ard Case wagons as dedicated Deffrollas, with Grots inside as DAVU

See, thinking like an eldar doesn't work. Killing a BW with 'ard case is only a little harder than killing one without, the deff rolla is close to useless against some armies (about everything other than marines or IG), so you've just tossed a bunch of points out the window that don't do much. If the wagon gets blown up there even is a decent chance of it killing all grotz inside, after all they are wounded on a 2+ and don't get a save, so it won't be holding an objective for long either. Not to mention that 'ard case makes it close to impossible for boyz to embark during the game in the matter you explained. Getting 20 boyz into an 'ard cased bw requires you to use all three access points, which is really tricky to pull off.

5th ed=Mechcoverhammer, but I've found that there are still some situations where having a mobile AP 3 shot will be an advantage

The killkannon is everything, but not mobile. You can't move any more than 6" and it has 24" range, and emo marines can even use their FNP against it. It doesn't even stand a decent chance to kill a rhino. Just try four big shootas and a kannon, they will kill more things than that killkannon, at half the price. Plus, they are 36". If you really want AP3 that bad, put a unit of tankbustaz inside. Or simply get a bunch of buggies. Funnily enough, you argue against the KMB on your Kanz but for big shootaz, while KMB are more point efficient on kanz than a killkannon is on a BW. If you want to improve your dakka army, get that AP3 where it should be, on kanz. Six rokkits at BS3 are going to kill more than that killkannon, and you can get big shootaz and kannons all over your battlewagons. You even save points in the process.

Wazdakka is Toughness 5. He can eat a few Meltas/missiles. Lists where running him in a squad solo (Venomspam/Sternguard) are an exception I've found.

You shouldn't worry about meltas. You should worry about shootaz, bolters, lasguns, shuriken catapults and about any guy holding the default gun of their army. Add in some vehicle-mounted anti-infantry gun and they will simply shoot him dead, not even considering heavy flamers.

MagicJuggler wrote:

@Cracker: Sometimes I want two Deff Dreads. Be it as "another hull" or support and countercharge. Thus, were I to take Snikrot, I wouldn't be able to take a Megaboss. Incidentally, one army I faced (and lost to. I feel dumb :3) at NoVa was a Ghaz tide that used Snikrot to escort a Bikeboss and Bigshoota Kommandos backfield to torrent vehicles in the rear/flush out small squad. After a round of munching my Lootas, that was that. The Boss easily could have split to do business as usual.

Well at least you responded, so big thumbs up there I didnt say anything against the deffdread previously. I dont care what others say, I like Deffdreads, Ive taken 2 dreads in double BigMek lists many times, and they almost always perform for me. Weather using one to tie up units or crunching big ol tanks, they have done me a good service. Maybe I just use them differently then other "tourny" guys *shrugs*

But as usualy, Jidmah pretty much covered anything I would of said, that fast typing bastard And yea a gunwagon as I call them, BW x4 bigshootas and a kannon has done rather well for me as well oddly enough. I probably wouldnt use it against my brother thats a vanilla SM player, as he has a fetish for meltas, but Ive used it against nids/csm/Tau a few times for lols, and it really can throw down some lead. I wouldnt say it makes back its points, but using it to papper units before assaulting them it has been a serious help.

Jidmah:
My issue with Tankbusta wagons is it makes them too obvious a target (and if I am putting *that* many points into a relatively criticial vehicle, I would rather not open-top it. Fragile is good if you're cheap and plentiful.) Additionally, I've found having wagons helps one LOS-block for lighter armor. (see below paragraph). If I am taking a killwagon, I don't want to put an assault deathstar inside it (draws more fire) and while I have had success with using Grots as a scoring upgrade (cheap :3), in practice they don't do much. Ultimately, I still want the passengers ainside to score, and ultimately I still want to use wagons as our Meltagun stand-in. And sometimes I want to be able to discourage an attack by "low attack, high strength" solos, or plank a vehicle (or even the same one should the initial Deffrolling not suffice, or the target is a Dread). I don't consider an Ard Case too much of a disadvantage, just because I generally don't trust Trukkboyz against a lot of rank-and-file, especially isolated. As for Big Shoota/Kannons, yes 4 Big shootas are deadlier. It means I am not moving that turn though (A Kan squad can move-amd-fire all 3 to full effect). Running a shootamob in a wagon costs about the same (20 Boyz and Nob, versus 10, a Nob, and a Killcannon). Mathhammer makes Shootas better for when a target is in cover (and they get other advantages) yet nothing else "reliably" throws out Ordnance either. Yes, it's inefficient against armor point-for point, and yes, Blood Angels will get their Feel No Pain. However, against large targets (gunships) or bunched-up units (DoA Angels) you also can't truly miss. One way or another, you can threaten "something." Point is, there may be a use.

(this is the below paragraph) If I am up against, say, Space Wolves with 12 Long Fangs for example and going second, my setup is normally to refuse a corner, reserve a Boy mob, embark the other one, and use the wagons to absorb the bulk of the initial S8 salvo. I have FA 14 and a field. I can weather it. I then in turn make it a point to counterfire at said Fangs (note, the same principal can apply with Lootas, Autodreads Hydra batteries/etc. Don't castle against Ordnance of course, but against armies with multishot weapons that can eliminate squadrons, use the wagons to screen. Use the squadrons to suppress or block what threatens wagons in turn, like speeders, or meltavet Chimeras. This usually means walkers advancing at opposing angles to threaten the enemy advance with mass sidesniping, or even parking a Buggy unit *right* in front of a Chimera wall to buy an extra turn to get Rollas into position). When the second mob reserves, it normally is to embark on a rear wagon or to go for an objective.

I know Rokkits and KMBs are either better against vehicles or FNP'd/2+ beatsticks respectively. In practice, I found massing Klaws can solve the second one better (while it's not efficient to send 2 Trukkmobs against, say a Grey Hunter unit or or a BA assault squad, or Purifiers...they are better insurance against, say, a Superwolflord, or Mephiston, or a Dreadknight. You know, "rock" models.). The issue with running short-range weapons on my Kans was thus one of range and lack of relative mobility...plus there are scenarios where I *want* them to fire on turn 1 ("Big Shootas to Long Fangs" Against AV 12 armies, I've generally banked on not being able to fire on turn 1 against worthy targets anyway ("I reserve my Stormraven/Scout my Vendettas out of range/deploy my Manticores on the opposing corner of the map/use Eldrad to redeploy my Prisms." It's more fun with Spearhead or DoW deployments) and usually found myself Running on the first turn. Now, if I am going to run, I might as well take the cheaper option that also threatens the movement of light armor at ranges I tend to see Rokkit Kans normalluly danced away from...Plus, this makes running my anti-DE formation of "Rokkit Buggies to chargeblock (as Orks would prefer to charge instead), KFF Mek in the center, Kans behind" comparatively less clustered up. Gork knows it's the only thing that kept my Boyz from being swept off the table by a Wychy Venomspam army with massed Haywires, and every unit getting 2 tokens due to a Haemonculus prejoin and rolling 6...

As for basic infantry weapons...in practice, they aren't easy to mass against a specific target, *especially* without having to demech (of course, there are exceptions, like Shootawagons, or Hellion lists). Since as a rule, Ork warbikersQ are much better at killing infantry than vehicles (though they can mess AV 10 up well enough, and you can generally get by with glancing AV 11, since such rides either carry slow troops, or are fire support), getting out to kill Wazz or any other small Bike unit is partially doing my work for me. That, and running him separate does let me target another unit.

Thus, whenever I've tested Bikes, my usual goal was to use Lootas/Kannons to target the stuff which can mess bikes up good. You know: Hellhounds, Fire Prisms, etc. The Bikers in turn *are* rather good at eliminating medium armor or glancing AV 11.

Ferret: Why cringe? He gives ld 8 and T5. He gains WS and FNP. The unit is small enough to Ere We Go semi-reliably and still benefits from Warpath. So you are Ld 8 instead of 10... This rarely matters except for Hoods or Runes. It's not like one can't plan accordingly...*shrug*

I cringed when I saw Zogwort supporting Nobz.

So far he's best with Kommandos (If you can rely on a 3 for his power.) Or in a squad of boys. What you have to watch out for with boys is the large footprint they create for ere we go and the fact that there are units that eat zogwrort should your boys charge into CC.

Bikers: Man them small, light and with a PK. Expect them to die. Expect them to eventually run. Charge them at the tanks you can't instantly pummel with lootas. Ie AV 13 (non walkers).

The trick with your proposed armies is that not only have you not gone optimal (you can win with suboptimal if you also haven't designed your suggestions for a set of tasks, filling in the weak spots that your core has.

Most of the optimal lists work because someone spent time to work out where the leaks in the lead were. They didn't just take 3 of group A autotake, 3 of group B autotake and 3 of group C.

Example: Lootas - noone's going to take lootas in full 15 squads and then ride the rest of their army up to the other end of the board first turn. That's inviting the lootas to be snuck around to and CCed.

Think and playtest is the key. Find your glove then patch the fingers.

MagicJuggler wrote:Jidmah:
I know Rokkits and KMBs are either better against vehicles or FNP'd/2+ beatsticks respectively. In practice, I found massing Klaws can solve the second one better (while it's not efficient to send 2 Trukkmobs against, say a Grey Hunter unit or or a BA assault squad, or Purifiers...they are better insurance against, say, a Superwolflord, or Mephiston, or a Dreadknight. You know, "rock" models.). The issue with running short-range weapons on my Kans was thus one of range and lack of relative mobility...plus there are scenarios where I *want* them to fire on turn 1. Against AV 12 armies, I've generally bamked on not being able to fire on turn 1 against worthy targets anyway ("I reserve my Stormraven/Scout my Vendettas out of range/deploy my Manticores on the opposing corner of the map/use Eldrad to redeploy my Prisms." It's more fun with Spearhead or DoW deployments) and usually found myself Running on the first turn. Now, if I am going to run, I might as well take the cheaper option that also threatens the movement of light armor at ranges I tend to see Rokkit Kans normalluly danced away from...Plus, this makes running my formation of "Rokkit Buggies to chargeblock (as Orks would prefer to charge instead), KFF
Mek in the center, Kans behind" comparatively less clustered up.

I really don't get that argument, big shootaz can't dent AV12. Let's mathhammer this, just for the sake of it. Both units can move 6" and shoot their stuff, or move faster and shoot nothing at all.
You are suggesting using 3x big shootaz on kanz and a killkannon.
- total of 75 points worth of guns
- factoring in BS, that's 4.5 big shoota hits at 42"
- one killkannon scattering 2.5" on average, hitting about 3 models or one vehicle at 30". Less vehicles if you can't center the blast on it or you're shooting small vehicles like walkers.
- none of this can put any backfield AV12 in danger on turn1. Even after that, the killkannon has a worse chance to penetrate than a S8 shot.

I am suggesting 4x big shoota 1x cannon and 3x rokkit on kanz.
- total of 60 points worth of guns
- 4 big shoota hits and a small blast at 36" scattering 3.5", hitting at least one model on average or one big shoota hit and a small blast at 42" or 0.33 rokkit hits at 42"
- 1.5 rokkit hits at 30"
- a total of 1.83 chances to penetrate AV12, including turn 1

So for 15 points less, you get about the same amount of hits on infantry, or two more hits on vehicles and have a better chance of penetrating those. Not to mention that one weapon destroyed takes out the entire 60 point worth of killkannon.
How is there even an argument for your setup? It's strictly worse at increased point costs and less flexible.
Klaws aren't a factor at all. You should have them in every possible unit anyways.

As for basic infantry weapons...in practice, they aren't easy to mass against a specific target, *especially* without having to demech (of course, there are exceptions, like Shootawagons, or Hellion lists). Since as a rule, Ork warbikers are much better at killing infantry than vehicles (though they can mess AV 10 up well enough, and you can generally get by with glancing AV 11, since such rides either carry slow troops, or are fire support), getting out to kill Wazz or any other small Bike unit is partially doing my work for me. That, and running him separatw does let me target another unit.

You probably want Wazzdakkas dakkakannon shooting at vehicles. Which means you are within 24" of them and probably within 18" of their bubblewrap. The move up 6", call FRFSRF or blade storm and blow him off the board. Marines and orks don't even need any fancy special rules to do that. A random scatterlaser, multilaser or heavy flamer is enough to pick off his last wound if he survives. You don't need any heavy guns to do that. As said before, deff koptaz aren't much less survivable then him(one less T, one more Wound, can't be killed by a single unit), and I've never had even one of them surviving after scout-turbo-boosting if I went second or got seized.

Thus, whenever I've tested Bikes, my usual goal was to use Lootas/Kannons to target the stuff which can mess bikes up good. You know: Hellhounds, Fire Prisms, etc. The Bikers in turn *are* rather good at eliminating medium armor or glancing AV 11.

Fire Prisms really don't do much to bikes. Were bikes even part of the discussion? I thought we were talking about killkannons and tankbustaz in trukks.

Jidmah: My issue with Rokkit Kans was one of range and speed, not damage. If I deploy first, my opponent generally can choose a corner while optionally reserving some units. Or I might run into an army where the player is using Nightshielded Ravagers and he starts off by Venoming my Lootas (or stunning my wagons should I be using them for Losblocking). Or the guy is running backfield infantry I need *dead*. Personally, I am starting to consider the Big Shootas a more "allcomer" option for walkers, in support of Rokkitbuggies. Maybe I've gone loony.

Bubblewrap is a concept like any other moveblocking one. Opponents who knew how to block are why I stopped fielding Ghaz: He gives a great burst in power and then you taper out, so if your foe gives you mininal opportunities to take full advantage of your Waaagh, you slowly die...Incidentally, the "best" antibubblewrap option when working with a small-tough army like bikers is to assault the extreme end of the wrap, and ensure you can survive the return attacks (hopefully limited if you aimed right). Even if you don't win, Pile in will force the Bubblewrapping unit to move aside. Be like Orky Moses and part the hordes...

Anyway, I derped on the killkannon bit. I mostly found them useful once the enemy is initially demeched, or to discourage getting out from a damaged vehicle (I generally don't bother trying to kill every vehicle in an army, so much as disabling them as needed. Thus I am okay with mass-glancing to some degree).