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From the Eldar FAQ: "Q. The warp jump generator description says Warp Spiders may make an extra move ‘instead of assaulting’. Does this mean that they can make their extra move during the Assault phase only if they are in a position where they could assault or can they do it anyway?
A. This move can be made in any Assault phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting or fighting in an assault."

..."any Assault Phase..."
Does this mean I can use the warp jump generators in my opponent's Assault Phase? RAW say yes. So, what is the timing of this? "Turn Sequence Exceptions" on pg. 9 of the BRB does not clarify, other than to list fighting in an assault as the most common occurrence of players being allowed to perform actions in their opponents' turns.
It's my opponent's turn, so do I let him/her declare assaults, move any/all assaulting models and then, if my Warp Spiders have not been engaged/locked into an assault, make my warp jump generator move prior to resolving any assaults? This seems to be the most reasonable sequence.

I know this is gonna get some panties twisted, but the FAQ clearly states "...any Assault Phase..." You make da call.

No, you may not do it in your opponents turn. Instead of assaulting limits it to your own turn.

The phrase "instead of assaulting" implies this is done in lieu of assaulting.

As you can only assault in your turn, you cannot use the jump in your opponents assault phase.

Iranna.

it seems you'd move them after the opponent makes his assault moves, at the same time you'd make your pile-in moves. i'm interested in seeing what dakka thinks of this.

edit: ah good call.

I'm not asking for interpretations of verbiage, or a judgement regarding RAI. "Any" means any. If it is my opponent's Assault Phase but it is not my turn, I cannot initiate an assault, but it fits within the bounds of ..."any Assault Phase". Ergo, If I am not engaged/locked in assault or fighting/contributing in an assault (in either mine or my opponent's Assault Phase) I fit the criteria. Tau did this years ago with their jet packs and it was eventually cleared up, but my source is taken verbatim from the official GW Eldar FAQ.

Any assault phase instead of assaulting does not equate to the assumptions you are making.

I'm not making a single assumption. The official GW Eldar FAQ specifically states "This move can be made in any Assault phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting or fighting in an assault."

The assumption is that you are given permission to move in a phase that never allows your models to move.

kirsanth wrote:The assumption is that you are given permission to move in a phase that never allows your models to move.

On the contrary. The official GW Eldar FAQ specifically gives me permission to move my Warp Spider models in "...any Assault phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting or fighting in an assault." "Any" means any, including my opponent's Assault Phase. Your use of the word "never" invalidates your statement, as we are all allowed to move our models in our opponents' Assault Phases, see "Pile-In!", pg. 40 of the BRB.

and also see consolidation

but i would say no you cannot can you please state the whole rule in codex and the whole passage from the faq?

croggy wrote:and also see consolidation (also pg. 40 of the BRB)

...can you please state the whole rule in codex and the whole passage from the faq?

The entire entry from the official GW Eldar FAQ can bee found in my OP. The rules for the Warp Spider warp jump generator may be found on pg. 36 of the Eldar codex. Also see "Jump Infantry", pg. 52 of the BRB.

Umm... This seems fairly obvious, but the Eldar Codex says:

"... may make a second jump during the assault phase instead of assaulting"

You can only ever initiate an assault on your own turn.

The FAQ clarifies the Codex, and the FAQ does not explicitly state that you can do otherwise. It states you can do it during any assault that the unit is not assaulting or fighting in an assault.

That is a fairly specific set of conditions. Specifically, you cannot assault if you want to make the move (unit is not assaulting) and that you cannot take the move if the unit is currently locked in combat (fighting in an assault).

I see nowhere in the FAQ that allows you circumvent the codex restriction of "instead of assaulting" which quite clearly places the movement in your own assault phase.

edit:
And before you go on about the 'any' in the answer again. Read the question it's answering. Specifically, the question is asking if something needs to be within assault range to make the second move, or if it can make this move even if there are no viable assault candidates.

If my Warp Spiders, in any Assault Phase, are not engaged/locked/fighting in assault then they fit the criteria of "any Assault Phase". Being within assault range is of no consequence in my opponent's Assault phase; there are no viable assaults for me to initiate in my opponent's Assault Phase, ergo I continue to abide by the criteria of "any Assault Phase".

I paraphrase: "I see nowhere in the FAQ that allows you (to) circumvent the codex restriction of "instead of assaulting...", excepting where the FAQ clearly states "...any Assault Phase...", a statement which many people seem unable to acknowledge or accept. Your rebuttal " Specifically, the question is asking if something needs to be within assault range to make the second move..." is likewise refuted by the official GW Eldar FAQ with the opening words of the answer to the question as posed "THIS MOVE CAN BE MADE...in any Assault Phase...", indicating there is no real distinction between verbiage semantics such as "first" or "second" when making a reference to moves. It is rather succinct in stating "THIS MOVE (specifically indicating the warp jump generator Assault Phase move) can be made in any Assault Phase..." which means ANY ASSAULT PHASE, mine or my opponent's, as long as the unit meets the stated criteria of "instead of assaulting" and "not locked/engaged/fighting in assault"...

I return the floor the YMDC.

Yes but they do not fit the criteria of "instead of assaulting" and since the FAQ does not remove this restriction explicitly it is still present.

You're taking part of the FAQ entry and using it out of context. It is "any assault phase where the unit is not assaulting or currently in an assault" this is different than 'any assault phase' If it had just said "in any assault phase" i'd agree with you, but it does not. It says any assault phase where they are not assaulting (implying the ability to assault during that assault phase), or not in an assault (locked in combat).

I think we can all agree that the second provision of the FAQ entry is fairly obvious (being locked in combat preventing you from moving), so I'll omit that from the rest of this.

That boils this down to the actual issue at hand.

Does the phrase "any assault phase during which the warp spiders are not assaulting" allow you provision to move them outside of your turn?

First of all we need to clarify what 'assaulting' truly means. I think it's fairly safe to say tat we can all agree that this means 'initiating an assault'

Next if we inverse the FAQ entry it says that they 'cannot in any assault phase during which the warp spiders are assaulting' I'm pretty sure we can also agree here. That if the spiders intend to assault they cannot also take the movement.

This means there is only one condition left unexplained. What are they allowed to do on an enemy assault phase when they are not locked in combat?

For that we must look at the BRB rules. Specifically, the subsection of The Turn titled "turn sequence exceptions" which states that there "are times when a player is allowed to perform actions during their opponents turn" This in turn implies that you cannot normally do so, and since 40k is a permissive ruleset you must get explicit permission to take action on your enemy's turn.

An example of this would be a pile in move on a turn in which your opponent assaults you. Pile in explicitly states that your opponent moves his models.

At this point we've established that moving outside of your turn is an exception and as such must have explicit ruling to allow it. I'm pretty sure this is also agreeable no?

The Eldar Codex states that it may make a second movement in the assault phase instead of assaulting. This requires that you give up the ability to assault to take the movement.

Let's now return to the FAQ. Yes, it says any assault phase in which the unit is not assaulting. However, you do not have the required 'currency' so to speak to make the move since it requires you to give up your ability to assault.

In short, the FAQ does not restrict your ability to do it, you are perfectly correct in this regard. However, the codex does with the phrase "instead of assaulting"

The definition of instead, at least in my dictionary, is stated as 'in lieu of' or 'in place of' which would mean that you need to be able to have the ability to assault in order to take the move.

Let's look at that last sentence again, as it is WHY the FAQ entry exists at all. The phrasing instead of assaulting means that you must have the ability to assault in the first place. The FAQ was written to answer the specific question of "Does this mean that they can make their extra move during the Assault phase only if they are in a position where they could assault or can they do it anyway?"

Reread the question. What is it asking about? Is it asking about the ability to assault on the opponents assault phase? No. It's asking if you can use the special movement even if you are not currently in a position where you could make an assault action (ie out of assault range of an enemy unit).

So the question does not explicitly give you permission to move outside of your turn, the answer does not explicitly give you permission either. It however, does not explicitly deny you the ability either.

Here in lies the issue, and my problem with your argument. Your point hinges on the fact that the FAQ does not deny you the ability to take the movement, neither does it allow you do so. The codex, however, explicitly denies you the ability to do so unless you could otherwise have the ability to assault. In the general spirit of the 40k rules, specific rulings trump general rulings. Since the FAQ is not explicit, and the Codex is, you must adhere to the Codex's restriction of "instead of assaulting" and thus may only take the move where you would theoretically be able to assault.


Now that that's done, if we look at this from an RAI point of view...

If your interpretation of the rules we're correct, a unit of warp spyders would be able to move 12" + 4d6 inches (12in move, 2d6 assault move, 2d6 assault move) in one game turn. Something doesn't feel right there as no infantry in the game has a potential 36in movement range (I'd like to point out that this is half the width of the game board and is twice the range of a vehicle moving flat out). That just does not sit right with me. This however, is not RAW and purely my opinion on the matter of course.

All that said, I will agree that is is simple to argue otherwise if all you do is quote the "any" part in exclusion to the rest of the rules.

I think the point you are missing is that "instead of assaulting" means YOUR assault move. you cannot make an assault move in your opponents turn. Are you assaulting your opponent in their assault phase? No. They assault you. therefore you cannot jump instead of assaulting in your opponents assault phase, as you are REACTING to your opponents assault. Not assaulting yourself. any assault phase simply means any of YOUR assault phases in this instance. any other interpretations are just grasping at straws.

I congratulate you, WanderingFox, on a well conceived, well thought out and well written rebuttal. But, again, I quote the official GW Eldar FAQ: "This move can be made in any Assault phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting (which obviously means my Assault Phase) or fighting in an assault (which means any Assault Phase, mine or otherwise)."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bazookatooth wrote: (A)ny assault phase simply means any of YOUR assault phases in this instance. any other interpretations are just grasping at straws.

Without "of your" following "any" in the answer, the answer means exactly what it says. an·y/ˈenē/ Adjective: Used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many.

commissarkurn wrote: (A)ny assault phase simply means

any time a move is possible you may do XXXX.


When it is not possible to move, this does not grant permission to move.

ugh, save the dictionary for when it will actually help your case. maybe you should read your own sig.... forget the "any" part because you can only make the move INSTEAD of assaulting. So again, can you assault in your opponents assault phase? NO! End of argument/Thread.

DakkaDakka wrote:

You're welcome, commissarkurn. I will, however, stop here since this has now become almost exactly the same as the 6 page monolith teleport thread, and I really don't feel like going around and around for that long again.

I've said my piece here, and I can see your reasoning, but I sadly cannot agree with it due to the lack of explicit permission in the FAQ that overrides the codex's explicit restriction on the movement

Okay...I don't intend to make everyone go ALLCAPSRAGE, but the ANSWER is the answer, not the question asked. "A: This move can be made in any Assault Phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting (which obviously means my Assault Phase) or fighting in an assault (which means any Assault Phase, mine or otherwise)."

Good Lord. This kid is obviously trolling and not reading the FAQ. First off, FAQ's are recommendations about how to play the game, or how to interpet a vague rule. They are not hard and fast rules errata.

It's fairly obvious RAW you can only make the move in YOUR assault phase.

Stop arguing with the kid and let him play it as he likes. When he rolls into a tournament and faces me across the table and tries to make a "second" jump during the assault phase, I'll tell him no. He'll pull out the FAQ, I'll call over a judge who will rule in my favor because we all know what the rules actually are, and then I'll laugh and win the game.

( just an aside, the actual wargear says the Spyder can make a second jump in the assault phase. Since he never makes a first one in the opponent's turn, he can't make a second one. End of story).

Well ok man, go ahead and play it the way you want to regardless of the rules or reason. Since it sounds like you have made up you mind before you even posted your question. why did you even post on the forum if you already "knew" the answer? You are still ignoring the part that says the move can be done "instead of assaulting" you have yet to successful show how you would get around this part of the rule. to me this answers your question. I have played many eldar players that use warp spiders and not one has ever attempted to cheat this way.

Edit: thank you KGatch. I didn't want to be the first one to call him a troll..

bazookatooth wrote: So again, can you assault in your opponents assault phase? NO! End of argument/Thread.

With that same reasoning: Can I not be engaged/locked/contributing to an assault in my opponent's Assault Phase? Yes. And it is because of this that I can use the Warp Spiders' warp jump generator to move in my opponent's Assault Phase if I so choose.

"...or fighting in an assault."

You are welcome bazookatooth!

commissarkurn wrote:

bazookatooth wrote: So again, can you assault in your opponents assault phase? NO! End of argument/Thread.

With that same reasoning: Can I not be engaged/locked/contributing to an assault in my opponent's Assault Phase? Yes. And it is because of this that I can use the Warp Spiders' warp jump generator to move in my opponent's Assault Phase if I so choose.

"...or fighting in an assault."

hahahaha, yes you can be locked into assault but you STILL are not "assaulting" Your argument is laughable at best. If you are not a troll, you clearly need to re-read the rule book.

I'll let it drop after this, I promise. A- I had not made up my mind before posting. B- I believe it is a topic for intelligible debate. C- Accusing me of trolling, referring to me as a "troll" and a "cheater" and showing solidarity for those who do so is acting in a manner that is uncalled for in an intelligent debate. D- I am NOT a kid. E- I read the rule book nearly every day. F- I'm new to playing Eldar, looked up the FAQ and voila!

There are two criteria in the answer, and each of those criteria are separated by the word "or".

commissarkurn wrote:Okay...I don't intend to make everyone go ALLCAPSRAGE, but the ANSWER is the answer, not the question asked. "A: This move can be made in any Assault Phase during which the Warp Spiders are not assaulting (which obviously means my Assault Phase) or fighting in an assault (which means any Assault Phase, mine or otherwise)."

The thing is, the FAQ stating that you can do it in any phase doesn't over-ride any other restrictions that may be already in place.

Yes, you can use the extra move in any assault phase... but you have to obey the rest of the rule, which allows you to make that movement instead of making an assault move. Which effectively means that you can perform the move in any assault phase in which you would be able to make a normal assault move... which means your own assault phase.

The FAQ response is a little loosely worded, certainly... because it's intended as a clarification of a specific question, not a replacement for the actual rule.

Thanks for that bit of logic insaniak. I missed it.