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hey guys.... I don't see a reason yet why i can't, but maybe you do.

If I fail an act of faith on the new sisters dex... can i use another point to try again?

There is wargear that lets you reroll a failed check.... but by the raw wording and referencing how the ICs work when part of the unit... I'd say there is no reason why I couldn't simply use another point for another roll...

Thoughts?

As long as you have faith points, you can keep attempting to cast the same power again, even if it fails.

Heck, if one wanted you could burn 2 or 3, and just roll 2 or 3 dice and take the highest.

The old book used to specifically state that a player could not use more than 1 faith point on a unit at any given time. The new codex makes no mention of anything like this.

So in my opinion, You're completely correct.

You can attempt an act of faith multiple times according to the new book.

I see no restriction on how many faith you can use on a given unit.

This coupled with the permission to use faith on any given unit that can use it, means you can use faith as many times as you wish on a given unit.

But the effect(s) will not be cumulative. Although there is no restriction on how many times an AoF can be cast on the unit the Acts themselves limit the effect(s). For example The Passion gives a unit +1 Initiative, so no matter how many times you cast it you will still only have an Init of 5 on the Canoness. If it had said add 1 to the stat then there might be an argument but the acts only give +1 to their given stat.

Except that isnt how it works. If you have +1I, and cast it again you have (Mod I) +1, which is the same as I+2

So yes, they do stack. FOr more proof look at hammerhand, which is a simple +1S power

I'm not so sure that the same power does stack. If you had an IC with Furious Charge and he joined a unit that had FC the IC wouldn't be able to claim that he gets +2 to S and I since he gets FC once from himself and once from the unit. Also wouldn't the first casting satisfy the result of +1 to Stat after the 1st casting.
It may just boil down to the sloppy writing style of the 40K authors but I would think that if they wanted the Acts to stack they would have said add 1 to the stat expicitly rather than the generic +1 Stat (which says to me that you just become a static number equal to the Stat increased to the next whole number).
I can see it either way but I think that RAI was that the Acts do not stack with the same Act.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I'm not so sure that the same power does stack. If you had an IC with Furious Charge and he joined a unit that had FC the IC wouldn't be able to claim that he gets +2 to S and I since he gets FC once from himself and once from the unit. Also wouldn't the first casting satisfy the result of +1 to Stat after the 1st casting.
It may just boil down to the sloppy writing style of the 40K authors but I would think that if they wanted the Acts to stack they would have said add 1 to the stat expicitly rather than the generic +1 Stat (which says to me that you just become a static number equal to the Stat increased to the next whole number).
I can see it either way but I think that RAI was that the Acts do not stack with the same Act.

Right, because FC is a universal special rule, he either had it or he doesn't. An ork Nob with a 'uge choppa can benefit from furious charge and the 'uge choppa for a total of +3 S.

This is not a universal special rule. It is a special rule for the sisters that allows them to get +1 strength upon completing a faith check. nothing says for or against it being cumulative, however, it is the user's responsibility to point out in the rules where it says he can. If he can't, it's no dice. So, you had your head on the right side of the line, but for the wrong reasons.

Leo - dont compare apples to oranges.

If you have FC from two sources, you still have FC and therefore only get +1S, +1I.

If you get +1S from one source, then later on +1S from another source you get +2S in total because thats whaat the rules are saying.

You also entirely ignored Hammerhand whcih explicitly confirmed to stack and IS a "+1"Stat"" power, entirely defeating your argument at its core.

I didn't ignore Hammerhand. I don't have acess to the rule so I couldn't address it.

Hammerhand is +1S. FAQ explicitly states it stacks.

Stacks from multiple sources right? It's not like an Epistolary can cast it twice on the same unit. The same FAQ says that a psyker cannot cast the same power twice unless it explicitly says so.

Homer

Yes, stacks from different sources. ANd they arent epistolaries, they're bog standard GK libbies - prior to the FAQ a mastery 3 libby could have cast it 3 times, resulting in S+3 +3D6 armour penetration, for an *average* roll of 18....

And to nip the "it must be different sources" arguement in the bud, the gk psykers are explicitly denied from casting three times from the same source where the sisters have no such restrictions.

I thought you couldn't cast a psychic power twice (or more) unless you had a special rule. Now if you had 3 libbys casting a power that granted +1S I would begrudgingly allow them to stack, unless the libby has a rule that says he can cast a power multiple times.

Happyjew wrote:I thought you couldn't cast a psychic power twice (or more) unless you had a special rule.

Yep, psyker rules in general do state that even if you can use more than one psychic power the user "still cannot use the same power twice in a turn" under PSA rules on page 50.

Happyjew wrote:I thought you couldn't cast a psychic power twice (or more) unless you had a special rule. Now if you had 3 libbys casting a power that granted +1S I would begrudgingly allow them to stack, unless the libby has a rule that says he can cast a power multiple times.

Grudgingly? Its in the FAQ

Comparing the FAQ answer about a Psychic power to an Act of Faith is, as Nos stated, comparing apples to oranges. Acts do not follow the same rules as psychic powers so the FAQ answer regarding psychic powers does not carry over to AoFs. If you say that they are the same ruleset then you couldn't use the same power twice on a unit because of the question following the stacking question which says that the same psycher can not attempt to use the same power a second time in a turn. In either event the rules do not allow stacking of the same AoF on the same unit.

Leo - no, thats the exact opposite of what the rules say.

Your contention is that "+1S" cannot stack; h'hand, which is a "+1S" power, does stack. It doesnt matter what the source is, the effect stacks

That's fine, I'll concede that psychic powers can stack. I will still contend that that doesn't mean that Acts of Faith stack. Different media have different rules and just because something applies to one doesn't mean it applies to the other. Cover and concealment come to mind as examples. They both matter vs Ranged attacks but not melee attacks. Even though the two attacks are mechanically similar the same rules do not apply to them.

It doesn't say anywhere in either article that you can attempt the same act with the same unit more than once per turn. People are assuming that it can be done based on the old way that Acts of Faith work. However, just because something used to be used one way does not mean that it is necessarily used the same way under a new set of rules. Since 40K utilizes a permissive ruleset it is up to the person making a contention that they can do something to show which rule allows that act. There is no rule that allows you to cast the same act on the same unit a second time, so you can not do so.

If you want to say that Acts of Faith are used like psychic powers and follow the same "casting rules" and "effect rules" then the question after the stacking question in the FAQ becomes an important rule as well. It says that the same caster may not cast the same ability twice (or more) in the same turn. Therefore since each unit is casting its own Act of Faith and each act can only effect the unit casting it you can not stack the Acts since you can't cast them more than once each turn.

I am a Sisters player and I would love to be able to stack the Acts but I just don't see how you can do that within the bounds of the RAW.

That is only because there is a specific rule disallowing cover from close combat attacks - otherwise they would be allowed.

You have a mechanic which proves that +1Stat powers stack.

The rule in the article states you can use acts of faith, and does not place a "once per turn" limit on them. You have permission to use them, and no restriction (apart from number of faith points) on how many times you can use them.

I think that you are taking a very liberal reading of the Faith Point mechanism. All that paragraph says is that you have that many points available and the more points you have the more Acts you can attempt. It is silent as to how many times the same unit may have an act cast upon it.

You are construing that to mean that you can try multiple times even though other mechanisms say that casters may not attempt the same effect twice in a turn. To my way of thinking the rules don't have to limit your actions they set a standard (in this case you must be able to cast an Act once or you couldn't do it at all). There would have to be a rule to expand upon the standard since it us a permissive rule set. By your own logic the psychic rules set a precedent for the Acts of Faith you therefore can't pick and choose which aspect of those rules will apply and which will not.

You have permission to use an act of faith on a unit
You have permission to use as many acts of faith as you wish

Without an explicit restriction you use both together to use more than one faith point per unit.

You need to find a rule saying they cannot. as they have permission to do so currently. Its how the gtame rules are constructed - permission, and permission HAS been ghranted to use multiple "castings" of the same power within the same unit.

Again I don't see the ability to cast as many acts as you have faith points as allowing the same act to be cast more than once per turn. To me you are taking a very expansive view of the rule. The paragraph also says that any unspent points are lost at the end of your turn. If the Acts can be cast more than once and they can stack why would you have any points left over? Even if you only have 1 unit left why wouldn't you use all of your points on that unit? When would any sensible person not use every point they have every turn if your reading is correct.

BEcause some powers have no use except in shooting / combat etc?

If all you haev are repentia not in combat, why waste time rolling the dice? It also reiterates that you cannot "save up" dice early on in the game for use later on.

Again, prove it wrong. You have to show a restriction, as there is inherent permission granted in the rules, and the game is permissive

I don't see your "inherent" permission. As far as I see the paragraph is simply stating the maximum amount of Acts that can be cast in any phase. Not that you can cast the same Act on the same unit more than once. To me it is saying that if you have 3 units and roll a 4 on your Faith point die then you're going to have one left over that you can't store for your next turn.

It seems that we are at an impasse due to the basic structure of how we are reading the same sentence. I don't claim that my way is clearly the correct way nor will I say that your reading is clearly incorrect. We'll just have to see who GW says is correct when/if they address the issue in a FAQ/Errata.

Then, you might want to read the Battle Sisters Aof. It gives you permission to use it in all three phases if you choose, but you must use a separate faith point and Act of Faith Test each phase.

Again the permission is explicit, in that you may use an Act of Faith (permission) and must use a point to do so. There is no language limiting how many times you can perform an act of faith, meanin gyou can perform as many as yo uhave points for

I resectfully disagree with you. You are inferring that you can attempt more than one Act of Faith on a unit more than once. To me all that says is the mechcanics for how to use an Act of Faith. It is saying that to use an Act you must spend 1 Faith point, nothing more, nothing less. The paragraph is silent as to how many Acts are usable by a single unit on any given turn. You are assuming that you can use all of the points on 1 unit if you wish (which you can obviously do if you roll a 1). My stance is that unless the rules specifically state one way or the other regarding multiple casting you can't tell what the proper reading is. And the only sure thing is that you can use each Act at least once for each unit. There is no explicit statement saying that you can do more than one per turn per unit.
Again, we'll just have to wait to see what the people who wrote the rules meant.

And, again, you have permission to do so. Thats all thats needed.

You cannot show any restriction - and I have shown permission.