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Funny, I don't see any permission to use the same Act on the same unit anywhere in the rule. I see a rule that allows multiple castings of Acts on different units. There is no explicit statement that you may cast the same act on the same unit in the rule. All the rule says is that if you have more than one Faith point you may cast more than one Act of Faith. Nowhere does it address how many acts may be cast on the same unit.

Maybe it's just my definition of explicit is different than yours (Amer Eng vs Brit Eng), but my definition is an outright stating of something is explicit. In this instance a statement that said you may cast an Act on a unit multiple times. There is no such statement therefore there is no explicit permission given.

So, I say to you again, that there is no permission granted for what you want to do. You are reading an inference into the rules that does not exist. We have been over this a few times already so I'm going to call it a day on this topic. I'll wait for the FAQ/Eratta to clarify just what GW meant with this rule.

I really don't see how "there is no permission granted" for using the same act multiple times, or how there is a difference between American and British English here. You are given permission to use multiple acts of faith. There aren't any more limitations. Use them then however you see fit.

The permission is for multiple uses of Faith. The ambiguity, as far as viewpoints go, is what, if any, are the limits of the usages. I see it as merely meaning that you can use more than one act of faith during your turn. You can even use the same act of faith as long as it is used on/by a different unit. I do not see the rule as granting the ability to stack the same act or use the same act on the same unit. Nos has said that the use of multiple acts on the same unit is explicitly stated in the rules as given. I said that no such explicit statement exists.

The argument breaks down to whether you want to read the rule as allowing unlimited usage of Acts on the same unit (Nos) or just allowing a player to cast multiple Acts of Faith using different units (me). I don't see the answer as reconcilable at this point so I'm not going to argue the point over and over.

We have permission to use acts of faith.

There are no restrictions on using the same act of faith more than once.

Since you are not restricted, and have the permission to cast an act of faith more than one, you can use them as many times as you want.

You have to show the restriction, if you can't then your argument is false.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:The ambiguity, as far as viewpoints go, is what, if any, are the limits of the usages.

How is there ambiguity here? Please enumerate the given limits of the usage.

I can see no restriction so you can use acts of faith more then once, IMO

EDITED CAUSE I'M A IDIOT SORRY :(

How about this? Under each act of Faith it says when successfully cast it does ... . It does not say for each successful casting... . I'm sorry but I believe it would be up to you to show where in the rules it says that a unit can have more than one of the same act of faith cast upon it. You are using wishful thinking in assuming that that is the case but the RAW doesn't bear this out. The rule just allows the casting of multiple Acts, up to your point limit, not that it allows the same unit to recast its act as much as it wants. There are numerous questions that arise from these articles due to the dubious writing ability of the author. Until there is a FAQ/eratta do what you feel is right and I'll do the same. If we ever come face to face then we can try to resolve the issue as best we can.

Duke- can you tell me where on page 94 it says that the same Act on the same unit stack? I see where it says that you can have more than one act on a unit at the same time but that is a different thing all together.

EDITED CAUSE I'M A IDIOT AND READ IT WRONG, SORRY :(

There has never been a contention that units could not benefit from more than 1 act at a time. Only that they can't benefit from the same act from the same source.

Here is some more wood for the fire. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the unit casting the act of faith must do so on itself. This means that you can cast any act of faith from any unit onto any unit in your army.

You have permission to use an act of faith per poiint

Nowhere does it say the same unit cannot use the act of faith

So, you have permission to do something IN GENERAL, and no specific restriction on your use.

Please, show the restriction

Please, show that multiple uses of a "+1" power dont stack.

Given that they have FAQ'ed something with the EXACT SAME EFFECT as stacking, you need to show an explicit restriction.

If you cannot do so, you simply have a load of suppositions not based on any rules. Do not use the phrase "RAW" when you have yet to provide ANY rules

Isn't the rule that you have to show that you can do something or else it is restricted? All you have shown is that a person is entitled by rule to be able to use more than one Act during a turn. You show me where it says that you can use the same power more than once on the same unit. Just because there isn't an explicit restriction doesn't mean that you can do something. The rules must say that you can do something and in this instance the rules don't say that you can cast the same Act from the same source more than once.

You chided me earlier in the thread for using USRs as a parallel for the Acts how is your use of a psychic power any more germane? An Act is a unique rule to a unique (psuedo)codex. There are no precedents for this codex and trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

From a different thread dealing with the permissive ruleset:

Phototoxin wrote:It's permissive.

Nothing says I cannot smash my opponents minatures with a hammer when I instantly kill them with lascannons but I think you'd agree that that is not allowed.

rodgers37 wrote:Phototoxin has the right idea, just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can....
There is nothing in the rule book saying you can't change the stats of everything in your codex....

Shrike325 wrote:There's three things thing to always remember with 40K:

1) The BRB and codices (for those wondering, that is the correct English pluralization of codex) are permissive. They never tell you what you can't do, they tell you what you can

Leo_the_Rat wrote:How about this? Under each act of Faith it says when successfully cast it does ... . It does not say for each successful casting... . I'm sorry but I believe it would be up to you to show where in the rules it says that a unit can have more than one of the same act of faith cast upon it. You are using wishful thinking in assuming that that is the case but the RAW doesn't bear this out. [...]
Duke- can you tell me where on page 94 it says that the same Act on the same unit stack? I see where it says that you can have more than one act on a unit at the same time but that is a different thing all together.

Leo, we HAVE demonstrated where the rules say that a unit can benefit from multiple acts of faith, and RAW most certainly bears this out. You have yet to demonstrate that there are any limitations saying that these can't be from multiple castings of the same act by one unit. At this point it seems as if you're being intentionally obtuse about this.

Let's walk through the order of operations here. Let's say we've got a unit composed of 1 Canoness attached to a unit of Celestians. We've got 3 faith points left at the start of the assault phase.

P 94 of WD 379- We attempt acts of faith immediately before the unit acts during the phase. They have to attempt their acts separately, but they share their bonuses.

I don't think there's any contention that the Canoness and Celestians can each attempt and, dice willing, succeed at sharing their acts with one another, gaining initiative and preferred enemy from the canoness and strength and fearless from the Celestians.

Now, let's say you want to make them more likely to wound their opponents. We'll have the Celestians try their act again.

Is the timing right? Yes, the unit still hasn't struck blows in this turn. How do we do it? Subtract the faith point total by one and then roll to see if you succesfully use the act. Notice the lack of restrictions saying that you can't use an act if you've already used it this turn, or phase, or what-have-you. If it's succesful, the unit "immediately gains a bonus and/or special rule until the end of the phase." So the unit gains another strength bonus, and fearless which it already had.

I'm not sure I can make it any more clear than this.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:There has never been a contention that units could not benefit from more than 1 act at a time. Only that they can't benefit from the same act from the same source.

Here is some more wood for the fire. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the unit casting the act of faith must do so on itself. This means that you can cast any act of faith from any unit onto any unit in your army.

There's only ever one unit referenced in the rules on using faith points. The unit is selected, a faith point is subtracted, the test is rolled, and if succesful the unit gains a bonus. That's my understanding of the rules anyway.

Zefig wrote:There's only ever one unit referenced in the rules on using faith points. The unit is selected, a faith point is subtracted, the test is rolled, and if succesful the unit gains a bonus. That's my understanding of the rules anyway.

That's my understanding of how you use Faith Points as well. I just don't see where you get permission to have the same unit use the same Act on itself multiple times. At no point in the rules does it specify that you must use the unit's act on the unit itself. By your own logic I should be able to cast any Act on any unit.

Because you have permission to use an act per faith point.

Is using an act multiple times by the same unit allowed? YES, because it is using an act per faith point, which is the only requirement.

You are looking for *specific* permission when *general* permission has already been given.

Can I ask you this simple question: do you deploy models in Ruins? If you answer "yes", please show *explicit* permission to do so in the rulebook.

You (famously) cannot find it. You cannot find permission to deploy inside a non-dedicated transport (although at leas there is implicit permission, from the p67 dedicated transport rules, but you hopefully get the point). You cannot find permission to deploy inside a forest. What you CAN find is *general* permission to deploy anywhere in your deployment zone (with occasional added restrictions, aka 2nd player in DoW) - but nothing specific.

So, if you answered "yes" to the question above, you must also allow multiple acts of faith by the same unit. TO do otherwise is asking for a higher standard than the rules require or are used elsewghere, and for no rational reason.

A lot of the discussion is on stacking AoF, which is not what the OP asked. While related it is a separate issue.

The pertinent question is not can a single AoF be stacked with itself, but if it fails can it be retried?

I hesitantly would say, yes. The specific wording from the previous codex that prevented such attempts was removed. While not the strongest evidence, it is something.

As we've shown before: you can use an Act of Faith per faith point.

Nothing stops you retrying, as you still fulfil the only condition (must have a FP left) and have permission to try the act of faith in general.

The reason the stacking / multiple times argument was broached is that mutliple castings for failed attempts being allowed implicitly allows multiple castings that are succesful.

BRB p 82 first line says that you can place units inside of ruins. So there's your specific permission. Models can be placed in area terrain by rule on p13 1st paragraph under "Area Terrain" and fairly clearly under the box labelled "Wobbly Model Syndrome". Since the various rules for deploying troops just say that you can start your units in X area then as long as you can put the model in that spot on then you can place the model where you want it.

So your point is? The situations you describe are indeed spelled out in specific rules. How is wanting me to find a specific rule regarding these matters germane to anything? So, since I found these rules I take it then you are willing to concede that you need to find a specific rule for multiple casting?

I notice that you haven't addressed the issue of being able to use any act on any unit. Any specific reason?

Deploying /= movement. Just to remind you. Rules for moving through are not equal to rules about deploying in - as you can deploy vehicles on the 3rd floor of ruins, they cannot move there.

SO no, you dont have a specific rule letting you deploy in Forests. You have a general rule about deploying "anywhere"

So no, I'm not conceding as you've missed the point - the point is you have general permission to perform an Act of Faith, as long as you have faith points left. You do not need specific permission allowing you to perform the same act twice, success or fail, because you already have permission to roll for it

You are unwilling to accept that general permission exists, and are simply making up a requirement to have specific subset permission in spite of this general permission existing.

Theres not point debating; I've explained my pointed, cited real rules and you have - nothing.

AS for acts on any unit? Thats an ENTIRELY different thread. It has absolutely no intersection with this issue at all. Start a new thread if you want to debate it, its irrelevant here. Thats why I was ignoring the OT nature of it.

I re-read the SoB 'codex' last night with both these arguments in mind. Although there are only two AoF with 'stackable' abilities, I have to agree with Nos on this one. The AoF rules allow you to use an AoF multiple times per turn. Each time tells you the specific effect that takes place.

Since you have general permission to use an AoF as long as you have a FP, you can use it multiple times. Since you can use it multiple times, you get the effect each time.

This actually makes Celestians and a Canoness much better overall and partially justifies the SW cost of a Celestian.

I feel that others have already rehashed this pretty clearly, but I also see no reason why an AoF ability could not be activated repeatedly, be used on the same unit repeatedly, or stack with itself.

Does this mean that sisters repentia would also get to stack?

Not really - getting to fight even when dead can only happen the once....no matter how many times you have it.

It's like having FC twice - you still only get +1S +1I, nothing more.

I just want to point out, It does say that if you fail, you can expend another faith point to have another go

Also, I realized that my point was wrong due to misinterpretation, sorry for that. My point was that they stack, my reason was a rule about stuff being cumulative, I applied it to the wrong stuff, I was wrong, I am truly sorry

DukeBadham wrote:I just want to point out, It does say that if you fail, you can expend another faith point to have another go

Where?????


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am having trouble seeing the reasoning for why you are able to attempt multiple Acts at the same time. Based on how they lay out how to attempt an act, the break down looks like this:

A)To attempt 'Hand of the Emperor'
1) select a Celestian unit
2) reduce your Faith Point total by 1,
3) roll a D6
4) apply modifiers to the roll
5) confirm success or fail
6) apply bonuses if successful

B) roll to hit

In this step by step break down of how they say to attempt an AoF, I cannot see a way to manipulate it to be able to attempt multiple times without breaking the rules of the AoF system.

The number of faith points spent is restricted to 1, no more. You are restricted from looping back to step 2 because of the timing of when you test (You have to roll to hit "immediately" after attempting, and once you roll to hit, you are ineligible to attempt again.)

While I agree that you have permission to use an act of faith on a unit, and you have permission to use as many acts of faith as you wish in a turn, this step by step process for attempting restricts a unit from using multiple faith points on itself. So these permissions are in regards to the army as a whole, otherwise only one squad would ever be able to attempt an AoF for the whole player turn.

I am not really concerned of whether I am right or wrong here I just want to understand the abstract thinking that can allow you to manipulate this system. So, where is this flowchart flawed?

Okay I think I found the part that will allow you to burn multiple points on one unit. What I originally thought to be two steps (1&2) is actually one step. If you interchange the wording to be 'reduce by 1 and pick a unit' it makes it easier to see that it is possible to loop this step multiple times.

So with this it seems that you can perform multiple acts at once, but you are unable to go back and retry if it fails the first time.