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Now that I've played around with the coach, it's an always in my army choice.
The question is, for the 2nd rare, what would you take?
Varghulf, Terrorgeist, or 4 Blood Knights?

With wraiths/banshees as hero options, I don't really put them in the running for the limited rare slots.

-Matt

Varghulf is nice since it can march without a Vampire nearby, but if you keep a Terrorgheist with your Black Coach it's more effective at picking off small units with death shriek.

Blood Knights have more combat potential than the Varghulf and a lot more combat potential than the Terrorgheist but they're so vulnerable to magic and non-cannon shooting unless you throw the hideously expensive banner on them. Blood Knights are so much better if you're willing to invest in a Vampire with Blood Drinker in their unit plus the banner. Varghulf doesn't need the rest of the army built around it.

They're all decent choices, what do you like more?

I had a lot of respect for blood knights, until I started taking fire/metal, as searing doom is the bane of their existence. I like the vargulf the most out of the three honestly, as I've seen him swing a few combats VC way.

Idk I gotta go with bliss knights personally, mix a unit of them w lore of light and it can get gory fast. I'm also big on cavalry too so I may be a bit biased :p

Nitros14 wrote: Varghulf doesn't need the rest of the army built around it.

I think he summed it up.

I do not know the rules for the terrorgeist, but the varg is independent and dangerous enough alone.

My order of favorite based on theme+fluff

Blood knights
Black coach
terrorgeist, (zombie dragon-counts as terrorgeist... love zombie dragons)
Varg

Favorite in terms of effectiveness

Black coach
Terrorgeist
Blood knights
Varg

The power of the terrorgeist scream cant be understated. Even if you dont get a good hit with it, it will usually force your opponent to react to its actions, allowing you to better control the flow of battle. He cant be ignored.

Demogerg wrote:My order of favorite based on theme+fluff

Blood knights
Black coach
terrorgeist, (zombie dragon-counts as terrorgeist... love zombie dragons)
Varg

Favorite in terms of effectiveness

Black coach
Terrorgeist
Blood knights
Varg

The power of the terrorgeist scream cant be understated. Even if you dont get a good hit with it, it will usually force your opponent to react to its actions, allowing you to better control the flow of battle. He cant be ignored.

After a game with coach + terrorgeist, it seems to be a good combo.
The coach works great; I'm only running a level 2, and one or two level 1's, so I'm at a disadvantage dispelling. Draining away a few power dice really helps out. The loss of my own power dice is offset with death magic generating more.
The Terrorgeist does something that the other units cant. It can circle the battle field and strip a rank at a time with shooting, and leap into combat to help out where needed. It doesn't fight much worse than the varghulf.
The vargulf is great, but I find it gets ground down too quickly to turn the tide.
While I love the blood knights, the models are stupidly expensive, and frenzy can be a problem.

-Matt

To me, well... It's either the 'Gheist or Varghulf.
Because I am as fond of the Blood Knights as everyone else seems to be, though I still like them.
So it's either 'Gheist or 'Ulf.
And to me it boils down to whether I want that extra vampire marching bubble the 'Ulf grants.
If I don't feel like I need it, then 'Gheist goes in.

'Least that's how I see it.

I dare say in sheer killingpower bloodknigths followed by Vargulf. They get so incredibel dangerous if they are joined by the rigth lord, I have had several experiences with them. And none really where pleasent

Trondheim wrote:I dare say in sheer killingpower bloodknigths followed by Vargulf. They get so incredibel dangerous if they are joined by the rigth lord, I have had several experiences with them. And none really where pleasent

The killing power of the bloodknights is good, but a large part of that is a magical banner and the addition of a very expensive vampire lord.
I don't want my lord riding out in a small unit of knights, so that option is a no go.

Varg only get 1 more attack then the terrorgeist. I'll trade the attack for the scream. You can wreck elite units with that, and it is the single best answer for the unkillable flying dreadlord.

-Matt

Just to look at what they do Blood Knights obviously hit the hardest and the Terrorgheist is basically useless at close combat for its points. It's not really a matter of one less attack. The scream is great don't get me wrong but I wouldn't want to oversell the Terrorgheist. The Varghulf is almost as maneuverable and can always march.

For 50 fewer points the Varghulf is bringing 5 WS5 S5 attacks with hatred which is a big deal. Terrogheist is bringing 4 strength 5 attacks without hatred and at weapon skill 3. Varghulf has lower toughness and wounds but a better save. Both get ~3.5 hits from thunderstomp.

4 Blood Knights with the hatred banner make a mockery of both in killing power for only slightly more points than the Terrogheist. 12 strength 7 WS 5 hatred attacks on the charge and 4 more strength 4 hatred attacks from nightmares. Double initiative as well.

The Blood Knights are dramatically more killy than the other options. Their vulnerability is really the issue.

Nitros14 wrote:Just to look at what they do Blood Knights obviously hit the hardest and the Terrorgheist is basically useless at close combat for its points. It's not really a matter of one less attack. The scream is great don't get me wrong but I wouldn't want to oversell the Terrorgheist. The Varghulf is almost as maneuverable and can always march.

For 50 fewer points the Varghulf is bringing 5 WS5 S5 attacks with hatred which is a big deal. Terrogheist is bringing 4 strength 5 attacks without hatred and at weapon skill 3. Varghulf has lower toughness and wounds but a better save. Both get ~3.5 hits from thunderstomp.

4 Blood Knights with the hatred banner make a mockery of both in killing power for only slightly more points than the Terrogheist. 12 strength 7 WS 5 hatred attacks on the charge and 4 more strength 4 hatred attacks from nightmares. Double initiative as well.

The Blood Knights are dramatically more killy than the other options. Their vulnerability is really the issue.

From my games that I've run terrorgeists and vargs, I see the varg getting ~1 or 2 more HITS in the first round of combat, ~1 more in the 2nd round.
Terrorgiest also has 6 wounds vs 4, something not to be over-looked.
Why am I a fan of the terrorgiest? It makes a 28" bubble of cav/monster killing. Nothing else in the vampire army can reach out and deal with threats at range.

The problem I had with blood knights is init 4. They can do stupid amounts of damage, but if you get paired up against an Init5 opponent, you can lose a lot of the expensive hitting power before you use it.

-Matt

Why not just take 3 of the rare choices ... or all of them? I usually play 2400 or 2500 and it seems like you should be able to get three in there, although I don't have the VC book or addendum. Any reason this might not work?

JayRed wrote:Why not just take 3 of the rare choices ... or all of them? I usually play 2400 or 2500 and it seems like you should be able to get three in there, although I don't have the VC book or addendum. Any reason this might not work?

From recent play, I've found that black coach and terrorgeist work great together.
That's 425 points of rares.
I could squeeze in a varghulf at 2400, but can't bring bloodknights (220 base) in a 2500 point list.

With a 390 point lord, and ~445 to 550 in heroes, I don't have a lot of space left for other units. I could drop heroes for varghulf, but I find the heroes more useful.
I typically run 2 smaller units of grave guard (18-20 strong) as specials, and tons of ghouls (70-90) as core.

As for the heroes, I'm running a vampire BSB, with 2+ armor and gem of blood; necro with feedback scroll, and either 3 wraith heroes or 2 banshee heroes. In bigger games, I add another necro with dispel scroll. It gives me 4 channel attempts, which has really paid off for magic defense.

I could drop the wraith/banshee characters for a varghulf, but I've found ethereal characters to be awesome. They pull and kill fanatics, and hunt fast cav/warmachines very effectively. About as well as the varghulf does, only so much cheaper, I can take them in quantity. A M6 terror causing ethereal that leaps out of ghoul (who pregame move) can threaten warmachines turn 2.

-Matt

That makes sense and it seems like a nasty list! So the wraith/banshee characters are better in most every respect vs the Vargulf I guess ... except vs daemons (nothing new here). Any balefires in that list or is that too many points?

JayRed wrote:That makes sense and it seems like a nasty list! So the wraith/banshee characters are better in most every respect vs the Vargulf I guess ... except vs daemons (nothing new here). Any balefires in that list or is that too many points?

I tried balefires, and swapped for coach. I wasn't having them make enough of a difference, and went with the feedback scroll + lore of death instead.

Wraiths are still decent against demons. They're a 60 point fast moving unit blocker. They die quick, but at only slightly more than a great eagle, they get the job done.
Banshees are very good against daemons. Low leadership and low unit count makes it pretty easy for banshees to slip between units and then just howl the rest of the game.

-Matt