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Ok so as I am reading my codex it says that there is no to hit for lash however the umpire in the tourney im going in has decreed that I have to roll to hit for my lash, is this right?

(note AFAIK no other races are getting a slight modding so what do you think?)

Cheers to all comments.

It is not a PSA. Show him the definition of a PSA in the BRB FAQ, and show that Lash does not fit this defintion.

You cannot roll to hit when it isnt a PSA to begin with.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It is not a PSA. Show him the definition of a PSA in the BRB FAQ, and show that Lash does not fit this defintion.

You cannot roll to hit when it isnt a PSA to begin with.

Ah it has been invented by the umpire one dice for one unit to hit with.

SO the TO is flat out making rules up?

Bad TO, in my opinion.

Ask your TO to post here and explain that one.

happygolucky - if you could also say what the tournament is, and where, that would be helpful.

PM would be ok.

Page 88 of the chaos space marine codex
" A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon "
In my understanding unless it says a unit or the target is automatically hit then you would have to roll to hit ?
Page 50 main rule book
"using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise )

Tyranid psychic powers page 62 of codex tyranids

Example, Eldritchs Storm, Large Blast Template, replaces shooting, doesnt state its a shooting attack, but it has to roll to hit

Wittman - and, if you'd read my post, it would have directed you the BRB FAQ, which defines what is, and isnt, a PSA

Lash is not a PSA therefore does not require a roll to hit

Lets thing this through realistically, ITS A WHIP!!! Do whips automatically hit where you're from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This arguement arose when people here claiming that JoTWW had to roll to hit, but LoS did not, and I found it to be complete crap if a giant gaping maw in the ground had to HIT, and a physical WHIP did not

Page 88 of the chaos space marine codex
" A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon "
In my understanding unless it says a unit or the target is automatically hit then you would have to roll to hit ?
Page 50 main rule book
"using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise )

Tyranid psychic powers page 62 of codex tyranids
All hive tyrant powers are psychic shooting attack which hit automatically how ever zoanthropes have a psychic shooting attack which have to roll to hit
fear of darkness codex blood angels page 63
"this is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically "

So as far as I can see lash of submission is a psychic shooting attack that doesn't say it hits automatically
Have checked the FAQ and there is nothing in it to suggest it hits automatically although one of the replies is very interesting

" can a daemon prince with mark of tzeench use two different psychic powers that both count as firing a weapon in same shooting phase
A: yes monsterous creatures can use two weapons in the shooting phase they must of course FIRE at the same target"

So this suggests again a roll to hit is needed

Yes, psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit. Lash is not a PSA. It's a Psychic Power you use instead of shooting. It doesn't have a gun statline, and it doesn't have anything saying "psychic shooting attack" which are the requirements according to the FAQ.

Happy are you referring to the rule book update which says
" any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon and any psychic power that specifically states that it I'd a psychic shooting attack"

Page 88 of chaos space marine book lash entry
A psyker may use this power instead of using another ranged weapon

This to me means psychic shooting attack as the codex is now 4 years old but still falls under shooting attack


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:SO the TO is flat out making rules up?

Bad TO, in my opinion.

Thanks for this glad to know your opinion all I am doing is interpret the rules to my understanding

I agree with nosferatu1001 that Lash is NOT a psychic shooting attack. The FAQ is very clear on what consitutes a PSA. Lash is simply a "normal" psychic power.

The chaos marine dex is very clear on how to use lash:

1. pick non-vehicle unit within 24"
2. take psychic test
3. if successful, move the enemy models.

There is no room for a To Hit roll.

RatWolf:

RatWolf wrote:
Do whips automatically hit where you're from?

Considering that lash is made up of immaterial energy that is controlled by the mind... Yes they do.

I agree with Wittman, to me it seems like and outdated way of saying ''Psychic Shooting Attack''

As it states that it replaces shooting at, BUT, Psychic Shooting Attacks do that anyway, so in my head, that translates into Lash of Submission being a shooting attack

Wittman79 wrote:Happy are you referring to the rule book update which says
" any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack"

Page 88 of chaos space marine book lash entry
A psyker may use this power instead of using another ranged weapon

This to me means psychic shooting attack as the codex is now 4 years old but still falls under shooting attack

Lash does NOT specifically state it is a psychic shooting attack. It only states that it is used in the shooting turn, completely different. Whereas the Hive Tyrant powers DO explicitly state which ones are psychic shooting attacks so this is comparing apples and oranges.

So all old codex are automatic hits fair dos
Happy you can organise the next tournament if you like ?

Wittman79 wrote:So all old codex are automatic hits fair dos
Happy you can organise the next tournament if you like ?

Eldar's PSA's need to roll to hit, they're still a relatively old codex. Eldritch Storm, Mind War, However Lash is more Like Doom

Mind War doesnt have to roll to hit ...

If you want to infer whether lash is a PSA or not, all you have to do is look at the Bolt of Change (Tzeentch only) definition (2 powers down on page 88).

It states that it is to be used in the shooting phase AND rolls To Hit and To Wound as normal.

If you want to argue that the dex is old and the "PSA" phrase didn't exist, fine. However, considering another power on the very same page explicitly states that you must make a To Hit roll AND Lash did NOT include that verbiage, it is still pretty clear cut. No To Hit roll for lash is needed.

Hmmm, i guess ''clively'' makes a fair point ...

Why when all of them say the same with regard to shooting as chaos codex ?

Wittman79 wrote:Why when all of them say the same with regard to shooting as chaos codex ?

They don't.

Let's look at the facts: The FAQ defines a Psychic Shooting Attack as,

"A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack."

Lash of Submission does not fit this criteria. If you need more evidence, the Chaos Codex says for Bolt of Change:

"Bolt of Change may be used in the model's Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon [same wording as Lash]. If the psychic test is successful, Bolt of Change counts as a weapon with the following profile, (roll to hit and wound as normal)" It then lists the profile of the attack, which meets the FAQ criteria of a psychic shooting attack.

Conversely, Lash says,

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a Psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player."

No profile of a ranged weapon. No mention of a To-Hit roll needed. No mention of the phrase Psychic Shooting Attack.



Lash is NOT a PSA by any stretch of imagination, and saying that it requires a To-Hit roll is simply BS and completely unsupported by any rules outside of LA LA Land.

Lash is not a PSA. PSAs are clearly defined, and lash does not fall under that category. It merely says that "instead of shooting" part so that you cannot run or use another power that is a PSA after lashing a squad say out of cover.

Actually, not all of the chaos marine psychic powers are resolved in the shooting phase.

Here's the breakdown:
Psychic Shooting Attacks
Doombolt
Bolt of Change

Psychic Attacks that take place in the shooting phase (not PSAs)
Wind of Chaos - although this one might need a little more discussion with regards to potentially scattering.
Lash of Submission
Nurgle's rot - in shooting phase, can take place even if model is in CC unlike any other shooting attack.


Psychic Attacks that take place at start of player turn
Warptime
Gift of Chaos

Wittman79 wrote:This to me means psychic shooting attack as the codex is now 4 years old but still falls under shooting attack

Does it say it's a PSA? No, the codex is too old.
Does it have a shooting profile (Range, Str, AP)? No.

The second clause exists for older codexes. Since it doesn't meet either clause, it's not a PSA, and hence does not need to roll to hit.

RatWolf wrote:Mind War doesnt have to roll to hit ...

Not to derail the thread, but Mind War DOES need to roll to hit.

BRB FAQ:
Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

Eldar FAQ:
Q. Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting
attacks?
A. Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though
they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting
rules, as specified in their description).

Mind War says nothing in it's description about not needing to roll to hit, therefor, it does require a roll. When the codex came out, it didn't require that, but now it does. (This is one more nail in the coffin for Mind War)

huh, see my frined plays Eldar and he's adamant that it doesnt, ill bear this in mind thanks

nosferatu1001 wrote:SO the TO is flat out making rules up?

Bad TO, in my opinion.

WHOA WHOA WHOA all I wanted was a rules clarifacatiomn NOTHING MORE nothing less, my umpire is an ace TO as he has came up with a mint system for to see who comes up top he has also been very good at knowing the rule its just that like all of us here were human and we all get rules mixed up so all i wanted was a page number so i could find it and show the umpire, I DID NOT WANT people bad-mouthing him NOR pre-judiceing him I thought this was a wargaming forum NOT a social-networking site.

NOTE: getting mod to lock thread.

Your reply indicated it was a rule made up just for lash, so it was indeed a made up rule. Thats all i was saying.