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Does GW know that many people hate the fluff Matt Ward writes? Or have I just been mislead to believe that alot more people hate him than actually do?
I don't mind all of his fluff, but some of it is a little over the top; I even allow plenty of room to manuever because of how flexible and just awesome the universe of 40k can be.

How does dakka feel about what Ward has done to all the codexes he's got his hands on? Do you enjoy his work? Hate every letter? or don't have an opinion because he hasn't graced your current army with his touch (sarcasm lol) yet?

To take this as calmly as possible, I find that the problem with Matt Ward's writing is that is that the subject of his writing are without fault, often times "the best evar" it whatever it is they do, and do rather unfluffy things (such as teaming up with necrons or killing scores of innocent people)

I was only saying to Matt the other day when presenting him with with a bumper size jar of pickled eggs, of the type often displayed on a shelf behind the jovial proprietor to be found in all discerning Fish and Chip establishments, how the, "let's tear into Matt with gay abandon!" threads had abaitted at last, after a prolonged hunting season.

Don't tempt providence he said, before popping an ouef de vinagrette into his mouth.
He proclaimed something else but the pearls of wisdom were muffled by the rubbery delicacy then being masticated.

My main problem is his writing style, I can't stand it. It's annoyingly vague at times, often reads like just a list of superkewl things that happened without any interesting details, or even details at all. I would describe it as boring, and when not boring it's really over the top.

As for the fluff, generally I find it mediocre. Nothing particularly great, but not bad. Some of it is bad though, and some is very bad. He also has an annoying habit of sometimes retconning things to make a faction seem much cooler than they originally were (The Damnos Incident comes to mind). Though, I admit there are a few bits and pieces here and there I like, the World Engine and Iori Delta Tove (Gee I wonder why) for example.

Though, his crunch is consistently solid, if badly written. That much is true.

Seems to me like he's a good concept man. Look at Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Blood Angels. Lots of good ideas in there, multiple decent units per FOC slot, some nice new concepts that he built on previous material. Codex: Grey Knights, again just ruleswise it is very solid in concept, not much in the book leaves you scratching your head wondering why/how it got in there.

All he really needs is a good editor. His rules are unfortunately written unclearly at times and require massive FAQs, and obviously his fluff has a few things that could have used editing. Note how I'm not saying they should be stricken from the record.

The whole Blood Angels and Necrons vs Tyranids thing, if the end of that story was just worded a bit differently, it would have been fine. There's nothing wrong in concept of two bitter enemies taking a pause in their battle to fight off a bigger foe, and again the Necrons and BA did NOT fight side by side in the battle. Just the bit about the end needed to be tweaked, as the BA would certainly still want to fight the Necrons.

Same thing with the Bloodtide. In concept, GK ask SoB to make a noble sacrifice to stem a daemonic invasion, nothing wrong with that. Just leave out that little bit about the blood smearing.

Again, he has good ideas, he just needs help executing them and someone to reign him in when he goes a little bit out of bounds.

Matt is the most consistant Rules writer that GW has. every book he writes is at a good balance of power.

His only problem is that he writes fluff from a very slanted view. He isn't as bad as people think(The Bloodtide is HORRIBLY misrepresented by the Internet and is actually quite consistant with its previous fluff, as obscure as the reference is)


Cruddance and Jervis have less Nerd rage with their fluff, but they have trouble with game balance. Cruddance wrote both the IG and Nid codex. No consistancy.

Grey Templar wrote:Matt is the most consistant Rules writer that GW has. every book he writes is at a good balance of power.

His only problem is that he writes fluff from a very slanted view. He isn't as bad as people think(The Bloodtide is HORRIBLY misrepresented by the Internet and is actually quite consistant with its previous fluff, as obscure as the reference is)


Cruddance and Jervis have less Nerd rage with their fluff, but they have trouble with game balance. Cruddance wrote both the IG and Nid codex. No consistancy.

It's easier to be consistent when you are writing 3 MEQ codex... Nids and IG on the other hand are about as different as they could be.
I'd do hope he stick to 40k, 7th ed Chaos Daemons was about as unbalanced as things go.

Well, good 'ole Matty Ward... I like his rules and units

...and I shudder at his fluff (sometimes followed by hurling).

Well with Cruddace, the problem is consistency within the same book. You don't have to compare IG to Nids. In a book with something as powerful and cheap as the Vendetta, how do you also get such ridiculously boneheaded options like Mogul Kamir and half the Russ variants?

In Ward's books, there is very little stuff that doesn't mesh in some way with everything else in the books, even if it isn't optimal. Cruddace puts in some units that are 'ZOMG amazing' and others that are 'is that a typo?'

The thing with Cruddaces current books is both have very poor and very good units.

However, the difference is the IG codex has gakloads of units and options, so there's bound to be a few hits in there. The Tyranid codex lost most of its options, so there's only a couple of hits per slot. In some slots, only one real hit (looking at you, heavy support). His method of codex writing is just throw as many random things into the list as possible and hope some of it becomes a functioning list.

Wards books at least have more than a couple of viable builds. His fluff may suck, but that goes for the rest of the 5th edition books anyway. His books may require FAQing, but at least you can make some good armies out of them.

Out of Cruddace, Ward and Kelly, I'd far prefer Ward or Kelly to write a codex than Cruddace.

As far as fluff goes, I'd rather they got one person to write the fluff for all codices. They only really do one book at a time anyway, and there's hardly any fluff to write for them. Get some consistency.

My issue with Matt Ward isn’t so such fluff, rules design or cheese but rather the overall quality of the final product. I find the overall quality of Matt Ward codices to be not as good as the other codex writers I’ve encountered in the past. When I read a Matt Ward codex, it doesn’t feel like a proper GW codex but rather rushed and clumsy.

I think just because a codex is technically balanced (i.e. not gamebreaking) or contains units that are able to do lots of damage, it doesn’t necessarily mean the final product of a satisfactory quality that one should expect from a company like GW. The overall rules design tends to feel like it didn’t properly take into account army composition, intelligent rules design and balance versus other factions. The fluff pieces are often guilty of clumsy plot devices which don’t appear to be as prevalent in any of the non Matt Ward codices I own. Whilst to a certain extent, 40k fluff should be over the top, I feel Matt Ward’s fluff exceeds satisfactory levels.

However I think the biggest worry in my eyes is that is that Matt Ward appears to be main codex writer for MEQ factions for 40k. I think GW needs to new blood for their codex writers. Either that or bribe someone like Andy Chambers to make a return.

candy.man wrote:My issue with Matt Ward isn’t so such fluff, rules design or cheese but rather the overall quality of the final product. I find the overall quality of Matt Ward codices to be not as good as the other codex writers I’ve encountered in the past. When I read a Matt Ward codex, it doesn’t feel like a proper GW codex but rather rushed and clumsy.

You just perfectly described Cruddaces codices. Hell, his Guard book even has fluff copy/pasted from 2nd edition.

I completely agree with Candy.man's idea of getting Andy Chambers back! Why Andy? Why did you leave us to these fools while you when to work on... Starship Troopers?

His fluff is like badly written 40K fanfiction.

Jackster wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Matt is the most consistent Rules writer that GW has. every book he writes is at a good balance of power.

His only problem is that he writes fluff from a very slanted view. He isn't as bad as people think(The Bloodtide is HORRIBLY misrepresented by the Internet and is actually quite consistant with its previous fluff, as obscure as the reference is)


Cruddance and Jervis have less Nerd rage with their fluff, but they have trouble with game balance. Cruddance wrote both the IG and Nid codex. No consistancy.

It's easier to be consistent when you are writing 3 MEQ codex... Nids and IG on the other hand are about as different as they could be.

Bullcrap. Cruddace just can't write rules worth a crap. So far we've had IG, Nids, and the SOB White Dwarf codex--all of which wildly fluctuate in terms of power.

Jervis hadn't written very much until the Ogre Kingdoms book which just released. But even then, when he was writing it wasn't that bad but the problem is that when he was writing books the design studio under Alessio was trying to head for something streamlined and less complicated. It's why we got the Chaos and Dark Angels books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:Either that or bribe someone like Andy Chambers to make a return.

I thought the goal was to make things not suck?

Chambers could write fluff. He couldn't write rules to save himself from a wet paper bag.

Grey Templar wrote:Matt is the most consistant Rules writer that GW has. every book he writes is at a good balance of power.

Hrm, debateable, the SM book was only eclipsed by the ridiculous SW book by Kelly and Ward's later BA and GK books.

His only problem is that he writes fluff from a very slanted view. He isn't as bad as people think(The Bloodtide is HORRIBLY misrepresented by the Internet and is actually quite consistant with its previous fluff, as obscure as the reference is)

It reads very poorly and while possibly blown out of proportion, doesn't exactly fit with most peoples conceptions of the GK's.

Cruddance wrote both the IG and Nid codex. No consistancy.

Actually there is a good bit of consistency, both have large numbers of bad/mediocre units that are so in much the same manner. The IG just have *more* units to make up for it so have more decent units and the core game mechanics favor their units and playstyle more.




The biggest problem with Mat Ward is that he writes essentially what amount to fandex's. Lots of extraneous rules/wargear and *awful* fanficy fluff.

Vaktathi wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Matt is the most consistant Rules writer that GW has. every book he writes is at a good balance of power.

Hrm, debateable, the SM book was only eclipsed by the ridiculous SW book by Kelly and Ward's later BA and GK books.

The SM book was also written with Cavatore still pushing his "SIMPLIFY!" agenda.

His only problem is that he writes fluff from a very slanted view. He isn't as bad as people think(The Bloodtide is HORRIBLY misrepresented by the Internet and is actually quite consistant with its previous fluff, as obscure as the reference is)

It reads very poorly and while possibly blown out of proportion, doesn't exactly fit with most peoples conceptions of the GK's.

Whose fault is that?

People who believe the Grey Knights to be the "ultimate good guys" are wrong. Everything about the Grey Knights is making the hard choices, doing the unthinkable in the name of humanity. They always have been about that, but somewhere along the line people started believing them to be paragons of virtue.

Ward is a genius; a veritable genius unlike anything that's been seen before. The problem is that the other writers can't write up to his level. His 'dexes always have multiple solid builds, balance well, and are a blast to play. I think a large amount of the hate comes from people being jealous. Oh, and the fact that we live in the age of "cool to hate".

His fluff is bad? Please. The 40k fluff is hackneyed from the start, is internally inconsistent, has changed multiple times, and really isn't that great. See: C.S. Goto and Ben Counter. (to be fair, I kind of like Ben Counter)

I hated his codex ultramarines... Er i mean codex space marines and how out of thousands of chapters all of them but like 4 are all ultramarine wannabes who all have a ard on for roberte girllyman (sp) and wouldnt dream of not following the codex. Pretty much a bunch of ultramarines fanwankery. The blood angles codex wasnt as bad, but it wasnt great. And the gray knights codex pissed me off, their suspossed to be the protectors of mankind, but have no problem flat out murdering billions of loyal guardsmen and civies just to keep the gray knights a secret. Oh and some guy goes about killing deamons, in the warp. In the freaking warp. And he burns down nurgles garden, one marine, burns down nurgles garden, destroys tzeeches city. These are Chaos gods, Gods, in the warp, and a mere mortal pimp slaps them.

Kanluwen wrote:
The SM book was also written with Cavatore still pushing his "SIMPLIFY!" agenda.

he may have been there when Ward was writing the book, but the SM book was the explosive beginning of the 2E-ish books we've got today with huge numbers of units, options and wargear comapred with the previous few books.

Whose fault is that?

People who believe the Grey Knights to be the "ultimate good guys" are wrong. Everything about the Grey Knights is making the hard choices, doing the unthinkable in the name of humanity. They always have been about that, but somewhere along the line people started believing them to be paragons of virtue.

I never said that at all, nor do I think most people believe that. Nobody would have complained has the Sisters been executed after the battle for having seen things they should not have seen, but engaging in what, to most, reads much like what a Chaos cultist woudl likely be doing, rubs people the wrong way. Had they made use of the sisters in battle and destroyed them afterwards to cover everything up, that would have been fine, but they basically engaged in what reads to most like a khornate blood ritual instead, which is not fine with most people.

It's not that they did something "dastardly", it's that they did it in a way that sounds more like what their opponents would do, rather than making use of valuable battle allies and then cleaning up the loose ends and executing the sisters for having witnessed heretical things.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The SM book was also written with Cavatore still pushing his "SIMPLIFY!" agenda.

he may have been there when Ward was writing the book, but the SM book was the explosive beginning of the 2E-ish books we've got today with huge numbers of units, options and wargear comapred with the previous few books.

Ward wrote Space Marines after Jervis and Gav wrote Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.

Dark Angels got a crappy reception, as did CSM.
They went otherwise for SM.

Whose fault is that?

People who believe the Grey Knights to be the "ultimate good guys" are wrong. Everything about the Grey Knights is making the hard choices, doing the unthinkable in the name of humanity. They always have been about that, but somewhere along the line people started believing them to be paragons of virtue.

I never said that at all, nor do I think most people believe that.

*points to the post above yours*

Nobody would have complained has the Sisters been executed after the battle for having seen things they should not have seen, but engaging in what, to most, reads much like what a Chaos cultist would likely be doing, rubs people the wrong way.

That's the point. The Grey Knights have been accorded special dispensation to do whatever is necessary, with any tools at their disposal.

Had they made use of the sisters in battle and destroyed them afterwards to cover everything up, that would have been fine, but they basically engaged in what reads to most like a khornate blood ritual instead, which is not fine with most people.

Yes. Let's use the Sisters of Battle in combat, despite the rest of the Sororitas on the planet having been corrupted.

It's not that they did something "dastardly", it's that they did it in a way that sounds more like what their opponents would do, rather than making use of valuable battle allies and then cleaning up the loose ends and executing the sisters for having witnessed heretical things.

Valuable battle allies who've already been proven to be corruptible, to the point where the majority had turned against each other.

Yeah. That's brilliant and totally would not compromise the mission at stake.

don't have the book in front of me as I'm at work, but wasn't the whole thing because the sisters were able to stand against the corruption? if so then why not have more bodies and guns at your side?

It was because the Sisters had "innocent's blood".

Think about any kind of major working in sorcery novels. The blood of an innocent, given willingly or unwillingly, always has a special kind of power.

I'll have to re-read the exact wording of the story again, i remember it was something about innocent blood but I also thought that was what was enabling the surviving sisters to fight on.

Either way, there were probably better ways to portray the GK's as willing to extreme lenghts and be just as evil as anyone else to defeat the threat of the Warp than bathing in the blood of innocents. Too much role reversal. Having the GK's be ruthless and evil in their own way, sacrificing billions to contain threats of the daemonic and executing soldiers they recently fought alongside does that plenty well, but "blood of innocents" rituals is just too...Chaos.

All right ill concide the executing the guardsmen, but putting 3 whole planets to the sword to kill a single company seems pretty chaotic. Something id expect khorne berserkers to do.

It's easier to picture them as 'the ultimate good guys' if you put yourselves in the shoes of a teenaged...

Oh, that's right, things aren't as simple and fun as they used to be when I was a kid. I'd better tarnish the reputation of a hard-working, experienced games designer.

WOTR is brilliant. Best thing Ward has drawn up.

Wort?

Vaktathi wrote:I'll have to re-read the exact wording of the story again, i remember it was something about innocent blood but I also thought that was what was enabling the surviving sisters to fight on.

Either way, there were probably better ways to portray the GK's as willing to extreme lenghts and be just as evil as anyone else to defeat the threat of the Warp than bathing in the blood of innocents.
Too much role reversal. Having the GK's be ruthless and evil in their own way, sacrificing billions to contain threats of the daemonic and executing soldiers they recently fought alongside does that plenty well, but "blood of innocents" rituals is just too...Chaos.

Anointing their wargear with the blood of innocents mixed with sacred unguents and oils in a ritual to allow them to repel the Bloodtide long enough for them to get in and kill the Greater Daemon responsible for it isn't fluffy?
They don't know if they'll survive the Bloodtide, physically. All they know is that they have a ritual that will let them get close enough for the Librarians accompanying them to banish the Daemon responsible and allow them to remain spiritually untouched.

That doesn't seem very Chaosy to me. In fact, it seems(dare I say it) fairly self-sacrificing.

I concur with you kanluwen.

Killing your allies on the field hardly sounds like self-sacrifice.
What irks me is it seems like the Grey Knights, who fight daemons regularly, would already be equipped for the Blood Tide. But the piece of fluff in question is like three sentences long and extremely vague. And to be fair I don't mind Sicarius....