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So, according to fluff, a Sorceror is a Librarian who has turned to Chaos to get greater power, but this doesn't seem to play out points wise. They cost the same, at 100 points, but then the Librarian gets two free psychic powers, and a psychic hood, and a 50 point upgrade to cast two powers a turn. The Sorceror pays for all his powers, including the upgrade needed to even get a second power, doesn't have the option to use two powers a turn, and also has no negation option for opponents' powers. Imperial powers seem, for the most part, more powerful and usable than the Chaos variety, especially looking at The Avenger against Wind of Chaos (both are template, Avenger is S5, AP3, Wind of Chaos is S5, AP4, and costs 20 points). Am I missing something here?

Chaos Sorcerors are in the Chaos Marine book, which was written in the 4th edition of Warhammer 40k. It's an older codex.

The Librarians in the Codex Space Marines and blood Angels books were written in the 5th edition of Warhammer 40k. They got new powers with the new codex.

Edit: I am hoping that the rumors that the Chaos Marines will be made into a Legions Book and a Renegades book will hold true. Also, considering the awesome powers that the Grey Knights got in their most recent books, hold on to your seat for their ruinous counterpart's powers.

Yeah, it's one of the many reasons why the current 'Chaos' Codex is so terrible.

Marine Librarian? Two free powers.
Chaos Sorcerer in service to the Lord of Magic himself? 30 point first power, 30 point Mark, 30 point second power.

Balance!

The imperial fluff armor makes them much stronger. But seriously, yes Chaos Sorcerers are far overpriced , and lack decent upgrades and powers is bad. But that explains the whole current chaos codex not just the Sorcerer.

The Chaos sorcerer has an invulnerable save, 3 wounds, and some potent attack powers. Librarians have better support/defense abilities. While the sorcerers are gimped for choices (symptom of their codex) they're not a horrible comparison.

I would think that the sorcerer would have stronger powers, but not as good a psychic defense. Stronger powers cause thats the whole point to being chaos. Less psychic defense because why would they need to avoid the temptation of the warp?

PraetorDave wrote:I would think that the sorcerer would have stronger powers, but not as good a psychic defense. Stronger powers cause thats the whole point to being chaos. Less psychic defense because why would they need to avoid the temptation of the warp?

By the same token you'd think they'd have more ability to defeat/disrupt enemy powers however having more knowledge of the secrets of the warp and whatnot.

The fact that they have *no* psychic defense was always weird, especially back when Librarians had a similar statline. It doesn't help that the Chaos psychic powers are awful by and large.

PraetorDave wrote:I would think that the sorcerer would have stronger powers, but not as good a psychic defense. Stronger powers cause thats the whole point to being chaos. Less psychic defense because why would they need to avoid the temptation of the warp?

Lash and Warptime are pretty damn good.

Back in the day one could buy a psychic hood for a Chaos sorcerer - indeed it was customary to do so. In common with most of the rules changes made to make traitor Marine armies distinct on the tabletop from their loyalist counterparts, it makes no sense. Presumably all the traitor legions' librarians dumped their psychic hoods at the same time every mono-god legion lost their jump packs and heavy weapons...

Look at the chaos codex in relation to the Dark Angels codex: the Sorcerer far outweighs the DA librarian. For their time, the chaos sorcerers were better. 5th edition has just made them obsolete.

Brother SRM wrote:The Chaos sorcerer has an invulnerable save, 3 wounds, and some potent attack powers. Librarians have better support/defense abilities. While the sorcerers are gimped for choices (symptom of their codex) they're not a horrible comparison.

Lash requires a mark of slaanesh and is pretty weak ( and thanks to the mark, expensive ) these days. Warptime is still cool.

Brother SRM wrote:
Lash and Warptime are pretty damn good.

Lash is highly situational in the 5E metagame. In 4E, it was broken, in 5E, it's good sometimes and worthless others, and is only available to one Mark that can only have one power. Warptime isn't a bad power, but the problem is that Sorc's really aren't combat beasts. It's great on a DP, not all the amazing on a Sorc.

Its codex creep. We are comparing codices made in different editions many years apart.

Once Chaos gets redone we can make a more valid comparison.

Actualy I am reconnting my thoughts I love my chaos power of turning the enemy into chaos spawn. I also love nurgles rott. I think that if it is 1v1 the chaos will win if he pulls off chaos spawn trolling.

I think you guys missed the FAQ that made Warptime worthless. It's now all or nothing.

Durza wrote:So, according to fluff, a Sorceror is a Librarian who has turned to Chaos to get greater power, but this doesn't seem to play out points wise. They cost the same, at 100 points, but then the Librarian gets two free psychic powers, and a psychic hood, and a 50 point upgrade to cast two powers a turn. The Sorceror pays for all his powers, including the upgrade needed to even get a second power, doesn't have the option to use two powers a turn, and also has no negation option for opponents' powers. Imperial powers seem, for the most part, more powerful and usable than the Chaos variety, especially looking at The Avenger against Wind of Chaos (both are template, Avenger is S5, AP3, Wind of Chaos is S5, AP4, and costs 20 points). Am I missing something here?

As much as I agree that Librarians are currently better, you have missed a few Sorcerer pros:
Gets a 5+ Invul as Standard
Has 1 more wound, attack, initiative, and ballistic skill than a Librarian
Cheaper jump pack, bike, and Terminator Armour
Wind of Chaos actually causes a wound on a 4+ with no armour or cover saves allowed, and glances vehicles on a 4+, but costs 30pts.

When you factor that stuff in, 100pts seems a bit fairer, but the cost of powers and marks soon adds up, and as you said, Imperial powers are almost universally more desriable.

Avatar 720, you're my newfound friend for quoting my favorite author in your signature. I'm also a fan of Garion's line in which he tells his wife that it was 'time to leave, as the air was becoming a bit rancid' due to the obnoxious diplomats/bureaucrats/forgot which.

Also, holy thread necromancy, Batman!

timetowaste85 wrote:Avatar 720, you're my newfound friend for quoting my favorite author in your signature. I'm also a fan of Garion's line in which he tells his wife that it was 'time to leave, as the air was becoming a bit rancid' due to the obnoxious diplomats/bureaucrats/forgot which.

Also, holy thread necromancy, Batman!

There are loads of gems like that in David Eddings' books, at least those of The Belgariad and The Malloreon (i'm borrowing his books from my Grandmother and she's borrowing some of my Terry Goodkind ones in exchange).

I have to say that I Silk is my favourite character simply because of the amount of clever lines he gets.

Ce'Nedra, though, just gets on my nerves; I honestly don't know how (Bel)Garion hasn't gone mad yet.

Off-topic to add to the threadcromancy!

<thread terminated; please don't revive threads that have been decently put to rest over a month ago.>