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Something just occurred to me - would a unit with the Tank Hunters USR gain a +1 bonus when trying to penetrate a Monolith? I'm leaning towards a definite "yes", since Living Metal says that it defends against equipment, whereas units will typically be granted Tank Hunters as an inherent ability. Just curious what Dakka has to say about it though since I searched the topic and nothing else showed up.

No, because it is not "Str + 1d6 only". It is then "Str + 1d6 +1" which isn't allowed by the living metal rule.

It's really only going to matter for another couple months at most anyway.

Unless I'm remembering wrong and tank hunter gives you +1 on the pen chart. In which case, it would work.

That is an excellent question that I do not have an answer to, my gut says yes because living metal says to use unmodified strength on the penetration roll and tank hunter is add 1 to the penetration roll, not add 1 strength to the shot/user.

Dave-c wrote:That is an excellent question that I do not have an answer to, my gut says yes because living metal says to use unmodified strength on the penetration roll and tank hunter is add 1 to the penetration roll, not add 1 strength to the shot/user.

I'd agree with this, you aren't modifying the strength, you're modifying the roll.

This was FAQ'd once, and it was not allowed then. It's a "Bonus" to the penetration roll. This is exactly what the Living metal rules prevents. The Monolith has "no" such weaknesses.

+1 on Tank Hunters does not work on Living metal. The old tank hunters that gave you a bonus on the damage table did though, but that one is gone.

Check it out! THIS question again!

It's been damn near 3 weeks since the last time. I think that's a new record?

omerakk wrote:Check it out! THIS question again!

It's been damn near 3 weeks since the last time. I think that's a new record?

Check it out! THIS user posting the same response about a thread

It's been damn near 1 whole day sense I saw someone posting that same response

but no, I do not believe tank hunter does anything to a 'lith

omerakk wrote:Check it out! THIS question again!

It's been damn near 3 weeks since the last time. I think that's a new record?

Well like I said, I did a search for "tank hunters monolith" but nothing came up so I posted it. However, I will agree that there are tons of "hey does X work against Monoliths?" posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, found this thread, although you can keep debating if you wish: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/388065.page

No.

Is it part of the 1d6 ? No.

Is it part of the unmodified strength of the weapon? No

So no, as that's all you get.

Definite no, for exactly the reason Ascalam laid out. Newest printing of the Necron codex says that all you ever get against living metal is the unmodified strength of the weapon plus 1d6. As the +1 bonus to penetration for Tank Hunter is outside of the two allowed elements for penetration against Living Metal, you do not get it.

Everyone keeps saying no. Why? An old faq? Sorry it isn't in the current one so that isn't a viable response. Living Metal does not allow bonuses to the strength of the attack, whether they are in the form of melta, chainfist, etc. It does however allow a Power Fist. Tank Hunters does not affect strength.
There are two different things that are used when determening whether or not the armor of a vehcile gets penetrated/glanced or not. The strength of the attack and the armor penetration roll. Living Metal says no modifiers to the strength...fine. Tank Hunters adds one to the penetration roll not the strength of the gun.
Typically I shorten it when I say that my BT ven dread has a TL LC that is S10 against vehicles. That is technically not right.
The mathmatical formula would look like this:
S=strength of weapon (in previous case 9)
P=penetration roll (d6)
A=Armor of vehicle (in this case 14)
S + (P + 1) = A this is a glance
S + (P + 1) > A this is a pen.

How about a current codex:

' In practice any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6, no matter what'

There is no permission there to add anything else. You get a single D6 + ununagmented strength. Nothing else, no matter what.

Tank hunters adds to the penetration roll. The rule disallows this.

Akroma06 wrote:Everyone keeps saying no. Why?

Because that's what the most recent printing of the Necron Codex says...............
Ascalam laid it out for you, I mentioned the rule from the codex (even covered the unaugmented ST plus 1d6 bit). It's not part of the unaugmented strength and it's not part of the d6, and those two are all you get when attempting to penetrate Living Metal. So, you do not get tank Hunter. That's why we keep saying no, because them's the rules.

Ascalam wrote:How about a current codex:

' In practice any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6, no matter what'

There is no permission there to add anything else. You get a single D6 + ununagmented strength. Nothing else, no matter what.

Tank hunters adds to the penetration roll. The rule disallows this.

Hmm a powerfist augments strength...and yet that was allowed. This thread is essentially a duplicate of another one.
In practice just kill the guys with the necron rule or wait until they get a new codex to play them. In practice is an example of how the rule is supposed to work. With a codex this outdated there will always be arguments like this so I'm just not gonna try. I got exausted in the last thread from this debate.

Akroma06 wrote:

Ascalam wrote:How about a current codex:

' In practice any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6, no matter what'

There is no permission there to add anything else. You get a single D6 + ununagmented strength. Nothing else, no matter what.

Tank hunters adds to the penetration roll. The rule disallows this.

Hmm a powerfist augments strength...and yet that was allowed. This thread is essentially a duplicate of another one.
In practice just kill the guys with the necron rule or wait until they get a new codex to play them. In practice is an example of how the rule is supposed to work. With a codex this outdated there will always be arguments like this so I'm just not gonna try. I got exausted in the last thread from this debate.

Read the rule. It's the unaugmented strength of the WEAPON. So tell me, what is the unaugmented strength of a powerefist. Let me help you, it's 2 x st of the user. That's why the PF works. No need to exhaust yourself, just read and follow the rules.......................

No people arguing stuff like this tires me out...plus long day but w/e.
Unaugmented strength...tank hunters does not augment strength it augments the d6.

Akroma06 wrote:No people arguing stuff like this tires me out...plus long day but w/e.
Unaugmented strength...tank hunters does not augment strength it augments the d6.

As has been repeatedly stated, read the entire rule. 1D6+S+1 isn't the same thing as 1D6+S

Akroma06 wrote:No people arguing stuff like this tires me out...plus long day but w/e.
Unaugmented strength...tank hunters does not augment strength it augments the d6.

No one is arguing that it isn't. In fact, EVERY is in violent agreement you are correct in the above statement. The issue is the latest Necron codex specifically states a weapon gets S + 1d6 against Living Metal (page 21 of the Necron codex), nothing more. Unless the FAQ makes any further clarifications, a model cannot make use of the the Tank Hunter bonus. The FAQ doesn't, so S + 1d6.

Nvm, don't want to get caught up in it.

** edited as person i was replying to retracted his post**

Whats your pen roll without tank hunters 1d6 + str of weapon

Whats your pen roll WITH tank hunters 1d6 + str of weapon +1.

The Living metal rule only allows the str of the weapon (unaugmented) and the d6. Rending doesn't apply for the same reason. It adds to the pen roll.

With a bit of luck they'll finally put this to bed soon, because i'm getting fething tired with people trying to circumvent the damn rule. I'd even be willing to take a nerf just to have an clear-cut and unarguable rule that people won't try to loophole.

Avatar 720 wrote:Nvm, don't want to get caught up in it.

Sometimes, this is the best path to take.


We've had this argument many times before, and we've never reached 100% consensus. It's ultimately up to the TO, or the players to decide on this.

For my own part, while I was leaning towards the +1 being allowed, now that I've read the arguments I'm in the S+1D6 camp. Not that it answers the question conclusively, of course, but I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.

No tank hunters vs a Monolith as its a bonus to penetrate. It basically allows weapons that couldn't do damage to a vehicle previously be able to do it. In practice its a Str bonus vs Vehicles.

Besides, Necrons get beat up enough. Do we really need ways to take down their one unit that is good in every way when the rest of the army falls apart like a cardboard wall in a rainstorm to just about anything that assaults it?

I keep reading the rule as "...no matter what" applying just to the single D6. so it would be S+1d6+any other modifiers not based on a die roll" In other words, melta weapons at half range: 1d6, Vindicare Assassin using his tank killer shot: 1d6 instead of 4d6, etc. However, if I really want to take down a monolith that badly, I have linked fire prisms (S10, AP1), and I have haywire grenades (d6 roll determines type of hit on vehicle).

At this point, I see it as "tie goes to the gimped codex".

On a similar note, does Ordinance still get to roll two dice and pick the highest? I could have sworn that old FAQ stated explicitly that ord still got to roll 2 and choose the highest, which is a 180 degree turn from what Ascalam stated.

Ogiwan wrote:On a similar note, does Ordinance still get to roll two dice and pick the highest? I could have sworn that old FAQ stated explicitly that ord still got to roll 2 and choose the highest, which is a 180 degree turn from what Ascalam stated.

It still works because it doesn't actually modify the strength of the weapon. A theoretical weapon that rerolled failed rolls to penetrate would still work too.

Monolith says unmodified strength +1 D6. Tank hunters affects the roll, not the strength, so you do get it.

woodbok wrote:Monolith says unmodified strength +1 D6. Tank hunters affects the roll, not the strength, so you do get it.

S+D6+1=/=S+D6. How many times has this been posted now?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

woodbok wrote:Monolith says unmodified strength +1 D6. Tank hunters affects the roll, not the strength, so you do get it.

S+D6+1=/=S+D6. How many times has this been posted now?

Seriously, I don't see how this is that hard to get.

Plus, it's not going to matter after november anyway.