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As per JustDaves kick-ass Chaos Codex (not the official name btw) as found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340878.page

I would like to present JustDaves rules and my WIP pics of the Chaos Land Raider Marauder!!


Land Raider Marauder - 245 points

BS4, AV 14/14/14

Wargear:
Hull Mounted Marauder Cannon (24" S6, AP3, Heavy 6)
2 TL Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Special Rules:
Assault Vehicle
Machine Spirit Corrupted <This vehicle may fire always fire a single weapon at BS4, this may be at a separate target to other weapons.>
This rule is still in effect even if the vehicle is shaken, stunned or has moved flat-out.
Transport Capacity: 16 (Terminators count as 2, cannot carry spawn, demons or Obliterators)




And some pics.

Marauder Cannon....

That is a beautiful idea haha.

Thanks. I hasten to add that i only came up with the conversion idea of this particular model. The original idea for the vehicle and all the rules came from the codex i linked at the top.

I reccomend every chaos player read and adopt this codex asap.

That's a really cool conversion.

It's also not something I would ever ever let my opponent take. A 6 shot weapon with S6AP3 on a vehicle that is five points CHEAPER than a standard land raider, and oh yeah, just for kicks, that weapon can fire even if the vehicle is shaken, stunned, or IF IT MOVED FLAT OUT. That's the biggest load of crap I've heard this side of the Land Raider Achilles.

The Marauder itself would only be used as part of the codex army listed.

it doesn't balance so well with the official CSM codex. but in context with the fandex linked in the OP it works pretty well.

i will keep the turret on the front as a counts as Heavy Bolter just coz i like the look of it. The sponsons are also magnetised so in normal games i have a set of lascannon sponsons that pop opn instead.

Darkjediben wrote:That's a really cool conversion.

It's also not something I would ever ever let my opponent take. A 6 shot weapon with S6AP3 on a vehicle that is five points CHEAPER than a standard land raider, and oh yeah, just for kicks, that weapon can fire even if the vehicle is shaken, stunned, or IF IT MOVED FLAT OUT. That's the biggest load of crap I've heard this side of the Land Raider Achilles.

It's also 5pts more expensive than a Land Raider Redeemer and 5pts cheaper than a Land Raider Crusader.
It's ability to fire when it normally couldn't is the same as Power of the Machine Spirit (which people don't claim to be broken). However, unlike PotMS, it doesn't let you fire an additional weapon (therefore 2 non-defensive weapons if moving at combat speed); therefore it's effectively a PotMS-lite.

The Marauder Cannon should be compared to an Assault Cannon on a Land Raider:
+ Marauder Cannon has 2 more shots.
+ Marauder Cannon has AP3. [Less effect vs. cover]
- Assault Cannon is twin-linked.
- Assault Cannon has better range.
- Assault Cannon has rending(!).

Remember an assault cannon is supposed to be statistically more likely to penetrate AV14 than a Lascannon, whilst a Marauder Cannon cannot even penetrate AV12.
I'm not going to go into more detail of why it's not ' biggest load of crap' or overpowered, as hopefully that should be evident.


----

Looking good Praxiss, I wasn't sure of the Hull-turret design at first, but I think it looks really good actually! I think it all looks really nice man; definitely looking forward to seeing the finished model. Great work!

Cheers Dave. Just trying to find soem armour plating bits to put on the side of the bolter sponsons and then they're done.

Might have to use a few of the old IG track guards stuck together as i've run out of Defiler "crotch plates" whcih woudl have been my first choice.

Maybe if it cost a bit more, or that cannon shot out a few less shots. It sounds like a Landraider Crussader, which I have no problems with. But then you changed out the Hurrican Bolters for Twinlinked Heavy Bolters, and upped the Assault Cannon to have better AP and two extra shots. Overall fire, 6 strength 5 shots, and 6 strength 6 shots with AP3. That's a lot of fire power.

The Landraider Cussader can only get 6 bolter shots, strength 4 (12 shots if within 12 inches) and 4 strength 6 shots with rending. (Excluding Multi-melta because that's normally an upgrade option now for +15 points. Unless you play DA still.)

Oh, and your Landraider costs less than the Imperium versions... Make it 260-275 point cost and I'd talk about it. If you reduced the Marauder cannon to either AP4, or give it only 4 shots, we might be able to discus it farther, at 245 points. I personally would rather see the vehicle be point cost to 250 like most other Landraiders. I think if you reduced the Transport capacity to only ten models instead of sixteen, that then you shouldn't have to really change guns much and it would be 250 in my opinion.

That is why home made units and rules are so hard to figure out. What one person sees as fair, another wont.

(All of course my opinion on if I was your opponent. I'm not saying I wouldn't let you play it at all as is, just I'd be hesitant and would want to hear a lot better reason as to why you have it set up that way and why you feel it's fair. Just Dave presented a good case that actually changed what I was going to say here... But I still feel it should be a little higher in points. It's got anti-infantry weapons with range. Those heavy bolters can do a lot of damage at 36". Unlike the Cussader who can;t do anything till 24" away, and really does harm only at 12" away. That's fairly close and a lot of ground it has to cover.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Love the conversion job for the record. That front cannon looks great.

My arguement would be that all the weapons you mentioned on the crusader are twin-linked and can also fire while the tank is on the move due to the hurricanes being S4.

So, lets say both tanks move 6"

Crusader can fire: 4xS6AP4 (or 1xS8AP1 for M.Melta), 12xS4AP5 (at 12") <and that's before you include PotMS>

Marauder can fire: 6xS6AP3 OR 3x S5AP4.


Also, as has been stated, the Assault Cannon for the Crusader can take out a Land Raider due to Rending, where the Marauder cant tackle anything above AV12.


My suggestion would be for some people to try using it in an apoc game sometime and see how it performs vs a Crusader

Maybe that Cannon should have Rending as well. I know rending is less effective on an AP3 weapon, reduce the shots to 4 and twinlink it? Similar to the Assault Cannon but with the AP3 intact? Just thinking. Probably a bad idea...

6 shots, not twinlinked. BS 4. About 2 shots should miss out of the 6... maybe one roll of a 1 to wound... so 3 down? And don't forget, those heavy bolters are also twinlinked. So you could sit at 36" and shot with those 6 shots at a squad.

I do admit, it doesn't sound very threatening right now to a dreadnought or anything with really good armour. But to a squad, it's down right deadly... (unless they have an Invulnerable save.)

What upgrade options would this tank have? Could it take a Multimelta of any kind? Or anything with a higher strength?

Yall are missing the part where it can fire even when the vehicle is shaken/stunned. Supreme BS if you ask me. That's MUCH better than PotMS.

A Laindraider can always shoot a weapon with the Machine Spirit unless it pops smoke launchers. It can move 12" and still shoot, and unless I read the rules wrong, can shoot even if shaken or stunned as well. But only with that one weapon.

Unless you are talking about something else entirely or I am thinking the wrong rule...

Praxiss wrote:Cheers Dave. Just trying to find soem armour plating bits to put on the side of the bolter sponsons and then they're done.

Might have to use a few of the old IG track guards stuck together as i've run out of Defiler "crotch plates" whcih woudl have been my first choice.

Either sounds good to me tbh; I agree that something on the side of the Heavy Bolters would definitely look good, although obviously I don't know what resources you have available!

Tesunie wrote:Maybe if it cost a bit more, or that cannon shot out a few less shots. It sounds like a Landraider Crussader, which I have no problems with. But then you changed out the Hurrican Bolters for Twinlinked Heavy Bolters, and upped the Assault Cannon to have better AP and two extra shots. Overall fire, 6 strength 5 shots, and 6 strength 6 shots with AP3. That's a lot of fire power.

The Landraider Cussader can only get 6 bolter shots, strength 4 (12 shots if within 12 inches) and 4 strength 6 shots with rending. (Excluding Multi-melta because that's normally an upgrade option now for +15 points. Unless you play DA still.)

Oh, and your Landraider costs less than the Imperium versions... Make it 260-275 point cost and I'd talk about it. If you reduced the Marauder cannon to either AP4, or give it only 4 shots, we might be able to discus it farther, at 245 points. I personally would rather see the vehicle be point cost to 250 like most other Landraiders. I think if you reduced the Transport capacity to only ten models instead of sixteen, that then you shouldn't have to really change guns much and it would be 250 in my opinion.

That is why home made units and rules are so hard to figure out. What one person sees as fair, another wont.

(All of course my opinion on if I was your opponent. I'm not saying I wouldn't let you play it at all as is, just I'd be hesitant and would want to hear a lot better reason as to why you have it set up that way and why you feel it's fair. Just Dave presented a good case that actually changed what I was going to say here... But I still feel it should be a little higher in points. It's got anti-infantry weapons with range. Those heavy bolters can do a lot of damage at 36". Unlike the Cussader who can;t do anything till 24" away, and really does harm only at 12" away. That's fairly close and a lot of ground it has to cover.)

Against Space Marines in the open, the LRM (Marauder) does more damage (by ~2 wounds) than a LRC (Crusader), but less than a LRR. Against Marines with a 5+ cover save, it does ~0.5 more wounds than a LRC, but again, less than a Redeemer.
Against GeQ, the LRM does less damage by~ 2.3 wounds than a LRC.
Against TeQ, the LRM does less damage by ~0.5 wounds than a LRC.
Against Vehicles, the LRM cannot penetrate anything AV12+. Against vehicles, the LRC/LRR/LR can all penetrate AV14.

Regarding the options; the LRM's are listed in my PDF Codex (linked at the top and in my sig), but ultimately the closest equivalent to a multi-melta is the combi-melta, for the same cost IIRC.

Obviously those are just mathhammer statistics, rather than in-game, but it appears to me that the LRM is only superior vs. infantry - as I intended for it to be - and only some infantry (MeQ only it seems) at that. This comparative lack of punch can be compensated by its otherwise superior range, but that in itself contradicts its large transport capacity.
The Heavy Bolters aren't defensive and therefore cannot be fired if it's moved*, which it really should be doing with it's transport capacity.
* Technically, Machine Spirit Corrupted would allow it to do so, but I can't imagine firing them over the Marauder Cannon.

So, to me it seems, and i designed it as such, that the LRM isn't of use against vehicles and is worse against tougher enemies. However, it can rip apart infantry (although less so than a LRC in some cases) and deliver many troops; as the linebreaker it's intended to be.
It's got a worse PotMS (a LRC can fire a multimelta, 2 hurricane bolter sponsons & its TL Assault Cannon - all its weapons) if it's moved at combat speed. A LRM can fire a single weapon if it's moved at combat speed.

So, it appears to be inferior in regards to mobility, damage output vs. vehicles, TeQ & MeQ, versatility, doesn't have frag launchers and has an inferior PotMS.
It is however superior at range and vs. MeQ.
For this, it's 5pts less than the Crusader and 5pts more than the Redeemer.


I'd rather make it different from an assault cannon personally, and myself, I'm happy with it's incarnation atm. I'm not rabidly defending my PoV, but I've tried to provide evidence for why I believe it's not overpowered, not least compared to the other vehicles available.

Darkjediben wrote:Yall are missing the part where it can fire even when the vehicle is shaken/stunned. Supreme BS if you ask me. That's MUCH better than PotMS.

No, it's really not. PotMS allows you to fire one more weapon than usual. 0 (stunned) + 1 (PotMS) = 1 Weapon.
Or... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/393261.page#3253772

I see what you mean... And what you say makes a lot of sense. I just don't want to see things with lower points because "It can't hurt a vehicle". If that was the case, a lot of things designed to kill just infantry would be a lot cheaper. Then again, as you compare to other Landraider variants, your numbers sound fairly accurate.

However, as a counter point, you say it's designed to charge into someone's face and drop off the cargo waiting inside. Personally, I'd be rather tempted to take it as a HS and just sit it 36" away from an infantry squad if the Heavy Bolt could handle then. Then just shoot 6 shots at them each turn. I'd only hunt down infantry at full speed if they had a lascannon. Then I charge in, take care of them, and plop myself in a nice spot to shoot. (Or I assign someone else to hunt down that one threat to it and call it good.)

By the way... When did the Redeemer loose ten points!?! (Don't normally look at my normal Marine codex, only my Dark Angels really.)

Oh, also consider with the Redeemer, any comparison needs to consider that it's only got an effective range of what? 6"? Flamer templates don't hit far. I know those flamers can hurt, but it also is set up one on each side, which reduces it's effectiveness as well.


I think with the information you presented though... I'd give it a whirl if someone wished to play this against me and see what happened. You've convinced me. Though I would still wish to see it at 250 points instead of 245. I know. Arguing over 5 points. So I guess I shouldn't worry so much?

Oh, and why can it take a combi-weapon? Seems somehow out of place on a vehicle. I've never heard (correct me if I'm wrong) a vehicle with a combi-anything in it. I's personally give it the old Multi-melta like the Crusader can get. Or if you think that is too much or too similar to the Crusader, then maybe a good old missile launcher? But then we add to range and... Oh... this is confusing... trying to solve one problem, and I create three more. Phooey. (Just doing some open brainstorming. Ignore, as I like to throw out half baked ideas to try and present my thoughts...)

Tesunie wrote:
Oh, and why can it take a combi-weapon? Seems somehow out of place on a vehicle. I've never heard (correct me if I'm wrong) a vehicle with a combi-anything in it. I's personally give it the old Multi-melta like the Crusader can get. Or if you think that is too much or too similar to the Crusader, then maybe a good old missile launcher? But then we add to range and... Oh... this is confusing... trying to solve one problem, and I create three more. Phooey. (Just doing some open brainstorming. Ignore, as I like to throw out half baked ideas to try and present my thoughts...)

Chaos Rhinoes have combi-weapons as upgrades.

Seriously? Wow. I don't know if that is a good thing for them... or bad? Then again, for Rhinos who normally can only get Stormbolters (I know Chaos ones can get some other goodies, but I don't normally look at heretical codexes...), I guess for them it might not be too bad an idea...

i for one ALWAYS give my rhinos a TL Bolter and a combi melta. Having a rhino that can pop a LR for a measly extra 10 points?

Thanks very much.

Good idea. love your conversions

Like it.
you can feild that against me as far as im concerned.
hull turret awsome.

Darkjediben wrote:Yall are missing the part where it can fire even when the vehicle is shaken/stunned. Supreme BS if you ask me. That's MUCH better than PotMS.

You clearly have NO idea how POTMS works.


PotMS allows you to fire 1 more weapon then you normally can(Which this altered one above can't do) or move(which this one also can't do) and you can fire the weapon at a different target.

Awesome conversion and cool rules

I wouldn't mind playing against this. Seems fair to me IMO.
Could you tell me how you made that front gun? I would like to make one, but just use it as the standerd bolters on the front.

looks like a Baneblade sponson turret with half a Vulkan Mega-bolter.

It's a Baneblade sponson and a heavy psilencer.

DING DING DING!!!

We have FINALLY found a use for those things

I really don't understand why people think this is even a little bit overpowered. First of all, like has been said, this PoTMS is WORSE than the loyalist one. Second, if you really think 6 shots at S6 AP3 is overpowered, you must be playing the wrong game. The only thing that is good for is killing light tanks and power armor in the open. Well, if you put your power armor in the open in front of this tank, that's your fault. As far as light tanks go, there are much more efficient options than this.

Also as has already been said, the assault cannons on other LR variants are twin linked, this one is not. 6 shots at BS 4 will on average net you 4 hits. 4 shots at BS 4 twin linked will on average net you (slightly rounding) 4 hits. You mean to tell me that 4 S6 AP3 hits are somehow ridiculously overpowered when compared to 4 S6 AP4 Rending hits? The rending hits are more effective against more things that you are actually going to be shooting at. Against light vehicles, the TL assault cannons are better, with the same strength, same number of hits, plus rending. Against terminators, TL assault cannons are better. Against anything in cover (aka everything), the guns are the EXACT SAME in killing power.

Sure, you have to get close with the Flamestorm Cannons on a Redeemer. Close... like you were going to get with your LR anyway to drop off its cargo? Plus, you can move 12 with a Redeemer and still shoot the Flamestorm with PoTMS (something you couldn't do with this tank.) Flamestorm Cannons are S6 AP3, which will probably average at least the 4 hits a Marauder Cannon will get, plus it ignores cover. Is that overpowered too now? Seriously, a Reedemer with a TL assault cannon (which again is better than the Marauder Cannon in most practical situations) and two flamestorm cannons, with a better PoTMS, is CHEAPER than this tank.

People need to not start foaming at the mouth when they read proposed rules in this forum. Yes, many people post silly, overpowered nonsense. JustDave has worked very hard on this, and to anyone who knows anything about the game, his rules are very balanced. Don't just spew off false facts. The LR Marauder is not overpowered. At all. It is balanced.

lledwey wrote:I really don't understand why people think this is even a little bit overpowered. First of all, like has been said, this PoTMS is WORSE than the loyalist one. Second, if you really think 6 shots at S6 AP3 is overpowered, you must be playing the wrong game. The only thing that is good for is killing light tanks and power armor in the open. Well, if you put your power armor in the open in front of this tank, that's your fault. As far as light tanks go, there are much more efficient options than this.

Also as has already been said, the assault cannons on other LR variants are twin linked, this one is not. 6 shots at BS 4 will on average net you 4 hits. 4 shots at BS 4 twin linked will on average net you (slightly rounding) 4 hits. You mean to tell me that 4 S6 AP3 hits are somehow ridiculously overpowered when compared to 4 S6 AP4 Rending hits? The rending hits are more effective against more things that you are actually going to be shooting at. Against light vehicles, the TL assault cannons are better, with the same strength, same number of hits, plus rending. Against terminators, TL assault cannons are better. Against anything in cover (aka everything), the guns are the EXACT SAME in killing power.

Sure, you have to get close with the Flamestorm Cannons on a Redeemer. Close... like you were going to get with your LR anyway to drop off its cargo? Plus, you can move 12 with a Redeemer and still shoot the Flamestorm with PoTMS (something you couldn't do with this tank.) Flamestorm Cannons are S6 AP3, which will probably average at least the 4 hits a Marauder Cannon will get, plus it ignores cover. Is that overpowered too now? Seriously, a Reedemer with a TL assault cannon (which again is better than the Marauder Cannon in most practical situations) and two flamestorm cannons, with a better PoTMS, is CHEAPER than this tank.

People need to not start foaming at the mouth when they read proposed rules in this forum. Yes, many people post silly, overpowered nonsense. JustDave has worked very hard on this, and to anyone who knows anything about the game, his rules are very balanced. Don't just spew off false facts. The LR Marauder is not overpowered. At all. It is balanced.

This.

Is it worth mentioning that 'Machine Spirit Corrupted' allows firing even when moving Flat Out, considering the LRM isn't Fast?

The front turret is indeed a Baneblade turret with a Heavy Psilenser. It is mounted on the Heavy Bolter plate that is normally used on the land raider. VERY easy conversion.

Glad to get some positive feedback on this. I am using it in an apoc game next month so it should be interesting. I should have the painting done in the next few days.

Again, quality conversion Praxiss, be sure to update us on any further progress man!

Avatar 720 wrote:Is it worth mentioning that 'Machine Spirit Corrupted' allows firing even when moving Flat Out, considering the LRM isn't Fast?

No, it was just a turn of phrase for it moving as fast as it can, which is as fast as a non-fast, vehicle can...