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Q1. Could a jokaero weaponsmith grant rending to an IC with an orbital strike relay if you rolled that cutomization at the start of a game? i dont see why not but just thought it would check.

Yes ... but only for as long as GW keep the monkey affecting IC ... he only effects them at all since GW choose to make people join IC to units before deployment, in an FAQ.

that rule confused me, the monkey gives those effects to everyone in the unit, never says if this is JUST the war band... or if it includes any IC

but i suppose, Rules as written i agree with Tri, as long as the IC is with the unit... he gets the bonus

(however, dose this still apply in CC when the IC is now treated as a different unit(or is that only for the purposes of choosing who to attack))

Is there anything suggesting these bonuses are only applied during deployment? As far as I can tell, any IC joining the monkey-band would also gain those benefits.

Jidmah wrote:Is there anything suggesting these bonuses are only applied during deployment? As far as I can tell, any IC joining the monkey-band would also gain those benefits.

When the unit is deployed ... that is the only time you get the upgrades added to the unit ... so if the IC joins later then it won't get the benefits as they've already been add to those that can were there ...

Still you could (rightly or wrongly) roll again after deploying from a transport and get another roll ... It is a very poorly written rule ...

That's not what I'm saying. When you deploy the the first time, you roll for the upgrades. However, those upgrades are a continuous effect affecting the unit, just like any other special rule or piece of wargear conferring any benefit to their unit. So if an IC joins the Jokaroos, he would gain the upgrades, just like a warboss benefits from FNP when joining a pain boy.

Jidmah wrote:That's not what I'm saying. When you deploy the the first time, you roll for the upgrades. However, those upgrades are a continuous effect affecting the unit, just like any other special rule or piece of wargear conferring any benefit to their unit. So if an IC joins the Jokaroos, he would gain the upgrades, just like a warboss benefits from FNP when joining a pain boy.

No the upgrade is made when the unit is deployed. After that point the monkeys rule doesn't come up again ever. The models that are effected now have a permanent change (well till the end of the game). This is also why destroying the monkeys wont remove the upgrade unlike a pain boy

Can you quote any rules as proof?

The wording suggest that jokaroos work exactly like pain boyz.

"When an inquisitorial Henchmen Warband....is deployed"

You only deploy once, at the start of the game

That rule tells you when to roll the dice, not when to apply the resulting rule.

So if I take 3 Techmarines and attach them to a warband unit at the start of the game, them turn 2 split them off the unit, do they receive the bonus for the rest of the game even though they are no longer attached?

Jidmah wrote:That rule tells you when to roll the dice, not when to apply the resulting rule.

Find a rule letting you apply the rule after deployment

3 Techmarines, Kramazov and a Grand Master? No, because leaving the unit is just like leaving a unit containing a model granting feel no pain, furious charge, counter attack, bonus attacks or any other bonuses. All these are worded the same as any result on the jokaroo table.

Jidmah wrote:3 Techmarines, Kramazov and a Grand Master? No, because leaving the unit is just like leaving a unit containing a model granting feel no pain, furious charge, counter attack, bonus attacks or any other bonuses. All these are worded the same as any result on the jokaroo table.

Actually they're not ... At the moment you can have IC joined to the unit when its deployed. When you roll the changes are permanent and every one in the unit gets them. Then that rule goes away and you are left with models with an extra rule, if any IC leave they'll take their rule with them.

Tri wrote:When you roll the changes are permanent and every one in the unit gets them.

It doesn't say that. It says (for example) that every model in the jokaroo's unit gets rending. Not at that moment, not permanently. So whenever a model is part of the same unit as a jokaroo who rolled rending for it's table, that model has rending attacks.

Jidmah wrote:

Tri wrote:When you roll the changes are permanent and every one in the unit gets them.

It doesn't say that. It says (for example) that every model in the jokaroo's unit gets rending. Not at that moment, not permanently. So whenever a model is part of the same unit as a jokaroo who rolled rending for it's table, that model has rending attacks.

that it does say so "All results apply for the duration of the game" in the Inconceivable Customisation rule

1) You roll for, and apply, the results at Deployment
2) The result lasts for the entire game
3) the context of "Jokaeros unit" is very much fixed into the "at deployment" time frame, not any point in the game.

You still didn't show how the actual result
"All shooting weapons in the unit are Rending."
or
"All Models in the unit have a 5+ invulnerable save."
differ from
Kor'sarro Khan's "Master of the Hunt", the Eldar's Guide, Doom, Conceal, Embolden, Enhance, Shimmershield or any Exarch Power for that matter, Mogul Kamir's "Khanasan's Finest", Lemartes' "Liturgies of Blood", Dok tools or a nartheticum, or any of the dozens of similar rules.

1) You roll for the jokaero's effect at deployment.
2) The jokaroo's unit gains the effect for the remainder of the game
3a) If any model leaves the unit, it's no longer the jokaero's unit or the inquisitorial warband. Thus it does not gain any benefit, just like a farseer fortuning a unit and then leaving.
3b) If any model joins the unit, it is now the jokaero's unit and thus benefits from what ever results Inconceivable Customisation held. Just like a farseer fortuning a unit and then joining.

There really is absolutely no rules base for any ICs taking the special rule of a unit they are leaving with them. All four results are worded as continuous effects. A fixed time frame also directly contradicts the rule's last sentence.

If the monkey dies, does the unit keep the effect?

Yes, because, as Tri correctly pointed out, the result "All results apply for the duration of the game", as opposed to as long as the jokaero is alive.

COntradiction, Jidmah

Once the Jokaero dies, it is no longer the Jokaeros unit, therefore no rules apply - using your reading.

You cannot have both results, please pick just one.

Difference is the unit get X when its deployed ... each model has it for the rest of the game. That is the only time that upgrades happen and it's the only time IC can get the upgrades ... and to be frank the only reason they can get those upgrades because there is a poor FAQ that says that you must declare which IC join a unit before deploying them rather then what it say in the rule book join a unit by deploying the character within 2".

nosferatu1001 wrote:COntradiction, Jidmah

Once the Jokaero dies, it is no longer the Jokaeros unit, therefore no rules apply - using your reading.

You cannot have both results, please pick just one.

Maybe, none of the results actually says "the jokaero's unit". The monkey might only matter during deployment, as his death takes away "Inconceivable Customization", but not, for example, "Improved Armor", as it explicitly tells you to apply that special rule for the duration of the game. However, I'm unsure whether "Improved Armor" and the like are actually special rules "gained" by the Jokaero or the unit as a whole(like BoP or ATSKNF). Thinking about it, you're probably right, and he takes the upgrades with him, could go either way though.

I'd also like to point out how everybody dodged spelling jokaero up till you posted, making me the only one spelling it wrong the whole time

@Tri: None of the four upgrades make the unit "gain" or "get" anything. They are all constant effects, compare them to all the rules I quoted. All those affect a unit and will be lost if the model dies/leaves and are conferred to any model joining the unit.

Jidmah ... in context you roll on the table and the effect happens to the models in the unit. It will continue for the rest of the game. There are two reason that there are problems.
1) the rule was intend for just the warband ... Changes made else where have caused it to effect ICs
2) the changes happen during deployment and do not happen again. That is why it say they continue for the rest of the game at the top. The units weapon ranges is increased by 12", so the models weapon all increase by 12" for the rest of the game ... ect.

Also IC "Special Rules" units special rules are not conferred to IC (or vise versa) unless its specifically says so. A pain boy technically does not confer to IC because the phrase "and any joined character" is missing but most people play that it does any way. Stealth is an odd situation while it doesn't specific character it does specify unit and units share a single cover save value ... which this rule boosts.

Tri - it does confer. It includes "unit" and therefore( as pages 48 and 49 state the IC is a normal member of the unit) the IC is included

Tri wrote:Jidmah ... in context you roll on the table and the effect happens to the models in the unit. It will continue for the rest of the game. There are two reason that there are problems.
1) the rule was intend for just the warband ... Changes made else where have caused it to effect ICs
2) the changes happen during deployment and do not happen again. That is why it say they continue for the rest of the game at the top. The units weapon ranges is increased by 12", so the models weapon all increase by 12" for the rest of the game ... ect.

Also IC "Special Rules" units special rules are not conferred to IC (or vise versa) unless its specifically says so. A pain boy technically does not confer to IC because the phrase "and any joined character" is missing but most people play that it does any way. Stealth is an odd situation while it doesn't specific character it does specify unit and units share a single cover save value ... which this rule boosts.

You still haven't shown why the four Inconceivable Customizations are any different from the other two dozen rules with the exact same wording. Guidance and Fortune are probably the best place to look at - everybody agrees how farseers joining and leaving their target unit works, why would the henchmen warband be any different?

Conferring a rule means getting the rule added to your special rules. If a rule named "Super Special Rule" reads "The whole unit gains Awesomeness", "Super Special Rule" is not conferred to the IC, however the IC would still have Awesomeness. This rule is commonly misinterpreted.

Sounds like this rule needs a bit of FAQ'ing

With regards to when you roll the buff it says "You roll for the jokaero's effect at deployment"

So you roll then deploy or deploy then roll?
I could see you deploying the unit differently depending on which upgrade you got.

So why the totally superfluous wording requiring that the effects last for the whole game?

As soon as you roll, each model has the rule - 12" extra range, etc. The jokaero dsoes not need to stay alive in order for this to remain, as you are told "the effects last for the rest of the game" (heavily paraphrased there), and nothing tells you to apply the rule after deployment, meaning models joining could not gain any benefit.

By that same logic units would not lose USR they gained from a IC if he leaves them. Kor'sarro Khan could then jump around all units in your army and have them all gain hit and run and furious charge.

"The result applies for the rest of the game" means exactly that it applies for the rest of the game. Meaning "All weapons in the unit are rending" applies for the rest of the game, not that every model gains rending and keeps it for the rest of the game. Whenever a model is part of that unit if is subject to the result.

I'd just like to point out that you brought up the monkey dieing taking the buff away, so you probably should explain your own argument before trying to counter it again yourself.

No, I pointed out the logical consequence of your argument, and ponited out the contradiction in your possition. Reread what I put!

"The result applies for the rest of the game" is incompatible with bonuses going if the monkey dies.