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Ok my regular enemies are Blood Angels, Space Wolfs and Chaos Space Marines. Without any further ado, here is the list

HQ
CCS 185
Astropath, Master of Ordinance
Carapace Armour
Lascannon
Colonel has Power Fist and Melta Bombs

This unit will give orders and provide long range fire support with the lascannon and MoO, before counterattacking with the veteran units when the enemy gets closer/deepstrikes in nearby

ELITES
Guardsman Marbo 65

Suicide bomber, intended to disrupt enemy advance

Stormtrooper Squad 1 105
2 Meltaguns

Stormtrooper Squad 2 105
2 Meltaguns

Both of these squads combat drop amongst the enemy advance destroying transports/tanks which can out range mine (like predator annhialators). But most of all...vindicators. before they get going.

TROOPS
2 Squads of Veterans 185 each (370 total)
These each have the same set up
Grenadiers, Demolitions, Lascannon, Vox Casters, 2 Plasma Guns

They will recieve orders for the lascannon from the CCS to engage enemy transports and tanks, in that order, before counterattacking with demo charges and plasma guns

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta 130

Scouts forwards and engages side armour of tanks, forces them to slow and engage in return, delays the enemy approach

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Vanquisher 220
Knight Commander Pask, Lascannon

Anti-tank obviously, had pretty good experiences with this cracking open anything with armour. and abbadon, pask's highest ranked scalp so far

Ordnance Battery 310
Medusa 155
Bastion-breacher shells and enclosed crew compartment

Will engage enemy as they approach, with 2D6 pen, strength 10 and AP1 it can crack open tanks pretty easily, and if needs be squash termies or anything like that which deepstrikes (although this will be pretty risky given scatter, but if needs must and my veterans can't cover it....)

Colossus 155
Enclosed crew compartment

This will hide behind a building/hill as far away from anything as I can get it, way out of sight. Since it cannot fire directly, this won't affect its accuracy. It will target any longfangs/devestators in cover, or if it comes to it anyone who is hiding in cover with an objective (since it negates cover saves)


1495 all up

Sorry if its a bit of a text wall with too many gaps, but I wanted to be able to tell you the ideas I have for each unit. I can forsee some issues with objective missions if they manage to wipe out my veterans, but I didn't want to go the melta vet approach or anything like that (since I play friendly games mostly, none of us run those super competitive lists). So yeah, any help, recommendations, or issues with this list just sound out. Thanks dakka
K

I dont think vets can take two doctrines, its only one choice of three options.

Its a pretty broad list but i think its got some pretty nasty units in it, would be fun and challenging to play. Maybe get more plasma guns/pistols in the vets once you take out demo or grenadiers (seeing as you can only choose one).

Where does it say you can only choose one? It says 'The squad can choose any of the following doctrines' (p.98), Not any one of these doctrines, but any of them, and the FAQ didn't have anything to say on it. It seems like you can to me.

And I was thinking of using spare points for more plasma, but maybe in the form of a pistol on the storm troopers, so that they could fire into the side/rear armour of transports with an extra shot? Or would the points be better off as plasma in the vets?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It came up in this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/346164.page#2436173

Yeah wow fair enough, but all that for demo charges and meltabombs i suspect isnt worth it. Grenadiers is though, against bolter weapons. I hate stormbolters chewing up guardsmen.. Anyway, decide if you want to take demolitions, and stay in cover for 4++, or out of cover with a 4+.. I suggest damage output of demo vets, but stick to cover?

True, the grenadiers could actually increase survivability in a bad way. If i survived a combat and then he finished it in my turn that'd suck wouldnt it, whereas I could use the 4++ vs shooting, then let myself die in combat so i am free to blow the living daylights out of them the next turn...what would you recommend the 60 points going to? plasma or chimera?

Hmm......not a bad list at all ^^


Personally i would use either 1 less Storm trooper or vet squad and replace it with a bog standard Platoon, more men, and the ability to use Heavy weapon squads

Also there is no use for Marbo, those 65 points can be used much more constructively elsewhere.

Add together the points saved from removing Marbo and 1 of the Infantry squads and you can add a good sized platoon in, giving you not only more numbers, and most likely more than the enemy, but also more ranged capability.

Whatever you do, hope you have fun ad enjoy the list ^^

LazzurusMan

A HWT with lascannons could do a similar thing as the stormtroopers do, but also benefit from orders...that'd be awesome.

But Marbo will stay, he has never failed to do amazingly for me (he has killed entire units of sanguinary guard, and their stormraven, plague marines, chaos marines...) in short everything he has come up against. Never failed to get his points back. I could drop a Stormtrooper squad and vet squad and get a biggish platoon yeah, and i'd still have vendetta, stormtrooper squad and marbo to slow them up.

Cheers for your help lazzurusman, I'll have a look at changing it right now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now with added input

HQ
CCS 185
Astropath, Master of Ordinance
Carapace Armour
Lascannon
Colonel has Power Fist and Melta Bombs

ELITES
Guardsman Marbo 65

Stormtrooper Squad 1 105
2 Meltaguns

TROOPS
Veterans 185
Grenadiers, Demolitions, Lascannon, Vox Casters, 2 Plasma Guns

I left the grenadiers on since I only have the one unit, and they may as well be surviveable as well as punchy

Infantry Platoon 295
PCS
4 plasma guns

2 Infantry Squads
Plasma Gun each

Heavy Weapon Team
3 Lascannons

I figure the PCS can join the CCS in providing a bit of punch counterattack wise, as well as orders (although not as many ), infantry squads can jump up and down infront of something to die if i get desperate (i mean that they can give a 4+ cover to a unit or two if needs be). The HWT will hang near the CCS with a nice, open view of the enemy tanks...its basically a less mobile vendetta

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta 130

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Vanquisher 220
Knight Commander Pask, Lascannon

Ordnance Battery 310
Medusa 155
Bastion-breacher shells and enclosed crew compartment

Colossus 155
Enclosed crew compartment

1500 all up now

maybe keep the veteran squads, remove grenadiers, give them stealth and snare mines. instead of grenadiers.

if not stealth, then use the 60 points to give them each the last plasmagun (30pts gone) and then give your Commander and each veteran sgt a plasma pistol.

Your original list is fine, but you forgot a vox caster for your CCS (which would get you up to 1500). Carapace on the vets is a good idea since you are running plasma on them. If the unit can't survive its own over heats then putting plasma on them is worthless.

The carapace only helps by 16.66%.. that isnt worth 30pts

@Hikaru speaking of overheats, I was playing my mates CSM, and I had a slightly different list. 2 squads of my vets fired their plasma guns at long range (so 6 shots), 6 ones, 6 failed saves....and I had my demo charges on those men (don't know why). So that was quite depressing, but funny at the same time. But then again, other games I have not lost one despite bulk overheats.
@kyran did that number take into account the fact that it gives you a save? against a bunch of things which would remove the 5+ armour save (bolters, flamers and that) and things which can remove the cover save which are pretty common in some armies (again with the flamers), they seem to hold up pretty well. But I have a list where I have altered them to have the camo cloaks and snare mines, Its just such a minor change I won't post it up here, but I'll give both a couple of goes and see how it turns out

First list was really bad, too much upgrades and low scoring capabilities.

Second list.

The veterans cost more than a tank, too much unnecessary upgrades plasma and a lascannon + demolitions? your paying 30 points for a demo charge and meltabombs but your weapons are rapid firing and heavy, bad mix IMO.

I'd advise against using Plasma on BS3 units but, YMMV. The risk of burning yourself against your chances to hit are not worth it.

I'm not against the Collosus but I am against you using the Collosus if you have no chance of forcing the opponents out of your 24" minimum radius. You'll only be disappointed with it especially with the units you' are fielding.

Vanquisher 220 points 1 target per turn, and not a sure chance of destroying a tank. You do the math.

Vendettas are great they're probably the best unit in the codex, but if it is alone it would be the first to die since it's high priority and really easy to shoot at.


Again too much upgrades

@Horo
Too much poor use of words
I kid, thanks for the help. I've had a lot of luck with Pask in the Vanq, but if I was to, say, drop it, what would you say too...
HQ
CCS 175
Astropath, Master of Ordinance
Carapace Armour
Meltagun
Colonel has Power Fist and Melta Bombs

ELITES
Guardsman Marbo 65

Stormtrooper Squad 1 105
2 Meltaguns

TROOPS
Veterans 160
Grenadiers, Demolitions, 3 Meltaguns

Infantry Platoon 295
PCS
4 meltaguns

2 Infantry Squads
1 Autocannon Each

Heavy Weapon Team
3 Lascannons

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta 130
Vendetta 130
Vendetta 130

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ordnance Battery 310
Medusa 155
Bastion-breacher shells and enclosed crew compartment
Medusa 155
Bastion-breacher shells and enclosed crew compartment

1500 all up

Does that sound better? Vendettas could push forward with scout move on flanks, 2 to 1 side and 1 to another, forces them to turn and face one way (which has 6 TL lascannons) and show their rear to 3, or if there is no armour on the board they can just deepstrike/outflank. Medusa's have no minimum range (colossus got the flick), vets get meltas and wait in cover to counterattack alongside CCS and PCS, while the plasmas got changed to autocannons to crack transports/infantry.
Is that a bit better Horo?

If your goal is to do a gunline list against power armor, you need to actually do it then.

First of all, cover is your friend. You can use cover saves for 'Get's Hot!' checks. Cover saves at +3 (or even +4) is better then spending 20-30pts on carapace armor (depending on the unit). Your already looking at staying static due to heavy weapons and rapid fire, so make better use of the cover to give you better survivability. Carapace is only really good against flamers, and the bigger the flamer, the less chance you have of that even helping you. And with a proper gunline list, they will only get that close if they DS in, because nothing else should /get/ that close.

Give up the dream of a CCS being a close comabt squad. Your Init 3 means your going last no matter what... and do you really think a 5 man Marine squad can't give your squad 4-5 wounds before you even swing, much less a dedicated assault squad? With that T 3, WS 3, eh +4 armor save, and Str 3-6 attacks means your fighting a uphill battle. There are only 3 IG squads that will give Marines a run for their money in CC or can outright crush them (specially on a charge)... Rough Ryders, Ogryns, and a properly kitted out blob.

I don't use arty, but for you, there is really only one option... Manticore. Two Manticores will actually give you a hell of a bigger bang for your buck. Don't get me wrong, Medusas are fine, but the Manticore is better.

I understand suicide units, and I like Marbro too... but the STs are a Lascannon HWS. Keep Marbro for something like taking out a Longfang squad with the demo charge then as a anti-infantry squad. The LC HWS can fire every turn, while the STs are not on the board turn 1, and once they get on they are gonna get smoked. That just comes across as mis-use of points IMO. If you don't have 3+ units coming in from reserve every game, drop the Astropath. Otherwise you might as well consider Marbro as 95pts instead of 65pts.

Try this list on for size...

CCS - 210pts
2x Plasma guns, LC, Camo Cloaks, Creed

Lord Commissar - 70pts
Bolter

Marbro - 65pts

Vet Squad - 210pts
3x Plasma guns, HB, Demolitions, Harker

PCS - 50pts
4x Sniper Rifles

PIS - 135pts (blob)
Commissar, 2x PW, Melta gun, Melta bomb, AC

PIS - 85pts (blob)
PW, Melta gun, Melta bomb, AC

HWS - 105pts
3x Lascannons

HWS - 75pts
3x ACs

HWS - 75pts
3x ACs

Vendetta - 130pts

Vendetta - 130pts

Manticore - 160pts

1500pts

Creed gives you 4 Orders a turn at a 24" range. Kell is good, but I couldn't fit him in. The Lord does Kell's job for him and you place the HWSs within 6" of the Lord for his 'Aura of Discipline'. Obviously the HWSs need to be in cover, as well as being within 24" of Creed for 'Bring it Down!'. Use the ACs to destroy Rhinos and the LCs to hammer anything over AV 12. The CCS can give orders to itself, so if your facing Land Raider spam, you should have 10 Twin Linked Lascannons at up to 4 different targets with only two Orders. You have 8 ACs for 16 shots that are twin linked with 3 Orders at 3 different targets a turn. Remember 'Bring it Down!' can only be used on MCs (Demon Princes are MCs) and vehicles and that your CCS has to also see the unit to give the Order. Also do not forget that HWSs are scoring units, so you can use them to objective camp if needed.

The Commissar in the blob makes it Ld 9 for Orders, so that isn't a problem. The blob rings out to protect the Manticore so DSers or DPs have to drop outside 6" of the Manticore to keep them out of melta range. This is called bubble wraping. Remember you can fire your meltas on them though and charge if they do drop within 6". Have Creed issue 'For Cadia!' and watch your power weapons do some damage. If nothing comes close, you have the ACs to pour fire down range. Pretty much plant your Manticore in a corner or along the table edge and form a half circle with your blob. Keep the blob within 24" of Creed.

Harker and his squad should be 18" away from a Devistator squad, but if they can be within 24" of Creed it is a win/win. Harker has no real long range anti-tank weapons, so be ready to charge vehicles if they get close. Just remember you can't charge if you use rapid fire though, so either you shoot or you charge...can't do both. But if they rush a Dread into Harker's squad, they will not be happy to face 9 melta bombs...you should get at least one 6 to hit. Don't be afraid to shoot side and rear armor with your two heavy bolters (or plasmas if in range). This unit should be kinda scary for marine units that are not AV 12+ vehicles...

Sniper Rifles in the PCS are for DPs of Nurgle and the like, as well as harrassment fire. Don't expect to much out of them against standard troops, but if they fire on a MC, you can issue 'Bring it Down!' to them to make them twin linked. Other than that, they are a scoring unit and a camper.

Use the Vendettas as pure gunships for taking out vehicles. After that... well, they are lascannons against power armor. Should be instant death for non-invuln/cover save marines. Do not be afraid to Scout turbo them out as needed, but putting them in melta range is kinda silly. You can Outflank them if you really want, though I did ditch the Astopath, so it might take them a turn or two...and Land Raiders are AV 14 all over, so there is little point IMO.

Good luck... if anything I hope this has givin you something to think about.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I re-read your typical opponets. If your not sold on the Demolitions on Harker, drop it to get a Officer of the Fleet... specially if the Chaos player likes to DS terminators or outflank Chosen. I would then be very careful where you place Harker to keep him away from stuff like a Furioso.

The Officer of the Fleet should really screw over Deep Striking heavy lists.

Cheers Tom, seems like an interesting list. But it will take me a good while to get those models if I decide to go that path. I might proxy a manticore in next few times I play and see how we go with that. Also, I'm going to have creed, either the actual character or he'll just be my company commander. its just the cigar and the scowl, so cool. I will make room for him. I SWEAR IT!
and thanks for your help
K


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And i just read the appended post of yours that I missed, no the only one who really uses deepstriking is my blood angels opponent. I'll keep the Officer of the Fleet in mind.

Yeah, if your doing Orders and have more than 4 units to give them to, Creed is the man. Plus he fits in any almost any IG list... besides Mech. I agree that any commander can be used for Creed, that is what makes him roxors as well.

The thing with Arty is you then need to defend it, thus platoons and bubble wrapping is a natural combo. And if you have Platoons, you can have up to 5 HWSs... it just kinda flows together really well.
Just keep an eye out for Dante in the BA list. If you see him, make sure you tighten up the bubble since he can just pick a spot and drop there with his damn Melta pistol.

I play alot against Blood Angels, but I also play foot assault guard with Ogryns and Rough Ryders (with Creed obviously). I have learned the hard way what IG units are good at assault and which ones are not.

two CCS is cheaper than creed, and you can just space them out. more resilience. and hey, chuck two master of ordnance in there. still cheaper than creed!

Sorry if my words are bad

Your new list is better than the last one, if you have the models, I'd suggest you play your list against various opponents so you'll know which units work for you and which ones you'll need to switch out. Dakkadakka can suggest a whole lot of units and strategies for you but if they don't work for you then it's just a waste of time. Just keep on playing and soon enough you'll be able to optimize your list. Good luck with the games, Cheers!

kyranzor wrote:two CCS is cheaper than creed, and you can just space them out. more resilience. and hey, chuck two master of ordnance in there. still cheaper than creed!

Two CCSs mean you don't have a Lord Commissar for HWSs. HWSs need the Lord for the 'Aura of Discipline', giving them a Ld boost if they take damage and for Orders since they can't use Voxs. And really, not having HWSs and being a Order heavy list kinda defeats the purpose. I guess you can use two CCSs with a Vet list where everyone has Voxs. Two CCSs don't replace Creed, and Kell doesn't replace a Lord Commissar. I do like having a Lord AND Kell, if I have the points.

Here's some stuff to think about...

-A CCS is likely to get wiped in assault pretty quick, but if you take a bodyguard it almost guarantees your CO gets a swing with his fist.
-You can't choose not to fire bastion-breachers if you have them.
-Someone probably said this but if you want survivable veterans, forward sentries easily beats carapace.
-Don't know if your group is okay with tailoring but if not, don't take plasma in every available slot. Melta is almost as good but better against vehicles.
-Keep the colossus, it's designed to kill marines. Try and fit some chimeras or tanks in for easy cover.
-Lose the medusas, they won't survive in your list.
-I hear they're working on a colossus/medusa/griffon box.
-Vendettas are too long to move fully onto the board at combat speed, so you can't outflank them and fire more than one lascannon.