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Hello, all. This is my first army of nids, it comes out to 1426.

Tyranid Prime w/ Talons, Deathspitter, and Adrenal Glands (95pts)

Tyranid Prime w/ Bonesword, Lash Whip, and Deathspitter (100pts)

Trygon Prime (240pts)

Carnifex w/ Dual Twin-linked Brainleech and Bio-Plasma

9 YMGarl Genestealers

9 Genestealers w/ Adrenal Glands

16 Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs

16 Termagants w/ Devourers

3 Ripper Swarms w/ Spinefists

The rippers are there to fill out the points and to absorb some hits on one of the Primes. The Fex has Bio-plasma because at the moment I have no other ranged anti-armor (though this is obviously not great anti-armor).

The next thing I need are a couple of Zoanthropes, and those will remove the Rippers and Bio-Plasma and will also provide some more synapse. I like the idea of Raveners I think, but not sure how I'd implement them. Has anyone had any luck with them? Are they worth it? Also, I want a shooty Hive Tyrant (brain-leech + Heavy Venom Cannon) but that won't be for a while.

Keep in mind that these are literally all of the models I own at the moment. The main tiips I am looking for are what to buy next to make this better.

Any tips?

On a similar, but unrelated note, has anyone ever made a strong Warrior based list? (ie: multiple broods of warriors for troops choices and Primes for HQs, with whatever would balance out the list)

Experimenting with a warrior theme and using warriors with swords as sort of a deathstar unit that pops up from a trygon hole..... Haven't really played. Game with it yet, but in theory a good number of warriors with boneswords deathspitters and adrenal glands attached to a prime kitted same should be able to do some nice shooting and decent assault, and if following a trygon should get into the mix with some ease, even if not reliable

some tips from a fellow nid player who writes up lists based on his models:

Try to put scything talons on your stealers. For a CC monster with rending, the worst roll possible is a 1. re-rolling ones makes it that much more likely that you will hit a rending roll.

Although gaunts are the infantry of choice, I cant stand them. they are too easily slain and are mediocre ni what they were designed to do. Unless you can scratchbuild a tervigon, the guants are about as usefull as a guardsman in a space marine army.

Take out one prime. It doesn't matter which one, just do it. It will free up some points that you may use for the upgrades mentioned above.

Use the Trygon as a prime. then, it's synapse, which means you can direct it's impressive power towards the vulnerable units in the back.

Give the rippers Tunnel swarm, and use them with the Trygon. They can burrow up with him and may then assist in the ensuing slaughter that is to come.

If you are planning on buying a HT, do it. It was the best thing that happened to my army since my army was built. he completely replaces the need for your prime.

just some thoughts.

Good luck!

Genestealers better with toxin than adrenal glands.

Trygon prime should really have adrenals though. Works best in pairs ...

If you run carnifex with 2 TL devourers then he can't also use bioplasma in the same turn, so don't buy it.

Assume one prime to be joined to carnifex. In which case regen for only 10 points is a nice buy.

Ripper swarms really aren't a great choice.

Only buy termagants to get a tervigon as troops or devourers in a spore.

You really need some real ranged AV. Hive guard or zoanthropes. Warriors can be converted to be hive guard ... probably best use for the models as their T4 makes them missile fodder.

On raveners, they are real decent with a 12" charge range. Walk them in behinf the carnifex etc and then spring them out approx T3.

On a similar, but unrelated note, has anyone ever made a strong Warrior based list? (ie: multiple broods of warriors for troops choices and Primes for HQs, with whatever would balance out the list)

Doesn't work really. Warriors are too slow and too vulnerable to be an effective unit in a competitive army. With some lists sporting 20+ S8 shots in games as low as 1500 points it really sucks to see 10+ warriors a turn swept off the board.

You will also find rippers are junk and not worth the points, ever. The prime should be attached to something where HE is the one catching missiles, like warriors, Hive Guard, Venomthropes or Zoanthropes or your Carnifex. Also, you don't need 2 primes, I suggest ditching the Talon/DS one, as no bonesword means he's not going to be killing much. Pick up regen so he's better at his missile catching duty.

Bio-plasma on the Carnifex is unwise, as I don't think you can fire all 3 weapons in the same turn, and 1 low BS, short range plasma cannon will accomplish exactly nothing.

Toxin on the stealers unless you have some manner of anti-vehicle or anti-halberd plan for them.

Raveners can work well, but have a tendency to outrun the rest of the army and end up alone in the center of your opponents army so need to be managed well. I suggest units of 6, with rending/scything talons.

Overall this feels like a battle force army, and needs some improvements. I suggest getting Hive Guard, at least 3, preferably 4.

Rennoc215 wrote:Try to put scything talons on your stealers. For a CC monster with rending, the worst roll possible is a 1. re-rolling ones makes it that much more likely that you will hit a rending roll.

You are either stuck in 4th edition or bad at math. Toxin > Scything Talons, period. Re-rolling all to-wound rolls vs T4 and less is WAY better then re-rolling ones on the to-hit roll, especially since the rending roll is on the WOUND roll, not the HIT roll.

Give the rippers Tunnel swarm, and use them with the Trygon. They can burrow up with him and may then assist in the ensuing slaughter that is to come.

Strongly disagree. This only works if they both become available the same turn, which is less then a 50% chance. Not to mention that putting rippers in the same combat as the Trygon just means the Trygon will win the combat by a smaller margin and force fewer no retreat/negative LD modifiers due to them eating all the return attacks and screwing up combat resolution. Worst case scenario is the rippers get wiped and the Trygon damage a ton of damage from combat res as well.

If you are planning on buying a HT, do it. It was the best thing that happened to my army since my army was built. he completely replaces the need for your prime.

Hive Tyrants need a plan, either wings or Guard, so are a difficult investment. They are also not at all necessary unless you want the +1 reserve or Old Adversary aura. I'm considering shelving mine in favor of a prime in fact, as paying 230-280 points for a 4 wound bullet magnet with no invul and no 2+ save is full stop slowed.

You've got a pretty broad base of units to start with there. You also hinted at raveners, is that an indication of the sort of units you want to go with for the rest of your army?

As far as creating a fast moving list, drop pods, gargoyles, flying hive tyrants etc, there's definitely the potential in the codex. On the other hand you've got 50 odd footsloggers in the form of your horms, terms and stealers, so if you want to go more swarm, then a tervigon or two would be a good investment (plus the requisite termagants to be spawned) such that you can sit them on objectives and generate meat shields with FNP.

It all depends on what sort of play style you want to have. Lastly, and as importantly, what sort of games do you play and want to play? Are you just gaming for fun and don't mind losing to play more fun lists, or do you aspire to play in tournaments and generally smash face? If its the latter then current opinion would hold that your options for advancing your army become more limited by only taking the very best, most efficient (opinion dependent) units in the codex. Not being a tournament player or one who dabbles in high end playing, my ability to give you the best advice in that regard is reduced somewhat as I wouldn't want to lead you astray.

Hope these questions lead towards the army you want.

ruminator wrote:Genestealers better with toxin than adrenal glands.

On raveners, they are real decent with a 12" charge range. Walk them in behinf the carnifex etc and then spring them out approx T3.

Sounds like that's probably a good idea about the genestealers, and I'm glad Raveners can be worthwhile, should they have a torso gun of some kind, like a Deathspitter?

Carnage43 wrote:

On a similar, but unrelated note, has anyone ever made a strong Warrior based list? (ie: multiple broods of warriors for troops choices and Primes for HQs, with whatever would balance out the list)

Doesn't work really. Warriors are too slow and too vulnerable to be an effective unit in a competitive army. With some lists sporting 20+ S8 shots in games as low as 1500 points it really sucks to see 10+ warriors a turn swept off the board.

That isn't surprising, still seems like a lot of fun though.

Carnage43 wrote:You will also find rippers are junk and not worth the points, ever. The prime should be attached to something where HE is the one catching missiles, like warriors, Hive Guard, Venomthropes or Zoanthropes or your Carnifex.

I know Rippers aren't worth it, I just don't have anything else and needed to fill out the points.

Carnage43 wrote:Raveners can work well, but have a tendency to outrun the rest of the army and end up alone in the center of your opponents army so need to be managed well. I suggest units of 6, with rending/scything talons.

Carnage43 wrote:Overall this feels like a battle force army, and needs some improvements. I suggest getting Hive Guard, at least 3, preferably 4.

It feels like it is because it is. I bought the battleforce, a trygon, an extra group of genestealers and my buddy gave me the carnifex. Are Hive Guard > Zoanthropes? I was generally leaning towards the Thropes because of the synapse and invulnerable save

Carnage43 wrote:Hive Tyrants need a plan, either wings or Guard, so are a difficult investment. They are also not at all necessary unless you want the +1 reserve or Old Adversary aura. I'm considering shelving mine in favor of a prime in fact, as paying 230-280 points for a 4 wound bullet magnet with no invul and no 2+ save is full stop slowed.

You can give him a 2+ armor save. Also, I was planning on making him ranged focused with a group of tyrant guard and 2+ armor save to absorb the bullets.

Reanimator wrote:You also hinted at raveners, is that an indication of the sort of units you want to go with for the rest of your army?

Yeah, I think I want a fast moving hard hitting army.

Reanimator wrote:As far as creating a fast moving list, drop pods, gargoyles, flying hive tyrants etc, there's definitely the potential in the codex. On the other hand you've got 50 odd footsloggers in the form of your horms, terms and stealers, so if you want to go more swarm, then a tervigon or two would be a good investment (plus the requisite termagants to be spawned) such that you can sit them on objectives and generate meat shields with FNP.

Yeah, I've seen videos of just how effective termagants with FNP can be. I definitely want a Tervigon and I really like the idea of the "zergling rush" but I feel like that would be mostly ineffective against my buddy (since I' going to play against him a lot) who runs space marines. So far I like the way Genestealers have performed. I think I want more of them. The best use of them seems to be outflanking, but that can be hazardous if they can't enter until turn 4 or 5. I guess a deathleaper and a Commander Tyrant are in order? (I've heard Lictors are overall not worth it right now), so I either want a fast hitting horde or a sneaky swarm.

Reanimator wrote:It all depends on what sort of play style you want to have. Lastly, and as importantly, what sort of games do you play and want to play? Are you just gaming for fun and don't mind losing to play more fun lists, or do you aspire to play in tournaments and generally smash face? If its the latter then current opinion would hold that your options for advancing your army become more limited by only taking the very best, most efficient (opinion dependent) units in the codex. Not being a tournament player or one who dabbles in high end playing, my ability to give you the best advice in that regard is reduced somewhat as I wouldn't want to lead you astray.

I'm generally going for more fun lists, but I don't want stupid lists either, you know? I want to play with the units I really like (thus the Raveners question) and I want to play the way that I feel would be most fun (which in this case means some kind of fast hitting horde or sneaky horde.) Ant advice?

I keep seeing people mentioning putting toxin sacs on the stealers, but that is a seriously bad move. those make stealers only wound on a 5+ according to the fifth edition rule-book. this is why I advise against it, especially when fighting Tau... that firepower is balanced out by the ability to wound on a 3+. I put toxin sacs in my list and bang! Genestealer efficiency lost. I was massacred.

Hive guard are worth the investment, as they are the most usefull form of firepower. Zoas are fun to paint, and I love the giant floating brain of doom feel, which is why I run them in my army.

I also feel like people are forgetting one of my favorite units, the ymgarl geanstealers. the variety and versatility they provide are amongst the few 'elitest' models in the army.

Post more later.

Stealers with toxin sacs wounding on 5+? I'm a little confused by that. As the toxin sacs are poisoned 4+ and being s4 they get re rolls against meq or lower... I don't see how that's anything but a good thing. That and you get more rolls for rending. Where are you reading about 5+ ?

Reanimator wrote:Stealers with toxin sacs wounding on 5+? I'm a little confused by that. As the toxin sacs are poisoned 4+ and being s4 they get re rolls against meq or lower... I don't see how that's anything but a good thing. That and you get more rolls for rending. Where are you reading about 5+ ?

He's not reading that anywhere....he's wrong.

Stealers need a 3+ to wound Tau, so 50% chance to wound and 16% chance to rend.
Toxin stealers need a 4+ to wound, so 33% chance to wound and 16% chance to rend, THEN you get a re-roll, so the 50% that missed gets another chance, so an additional 16% wounds and 8% rends, giving 50% chance to wound and 24% chance to rend overall.

Poison gets even better the higher the toughness you go against but even against T3 it's a damage improvement.

That's what I thought. But hey, we've all misread stuff in the past, hopefully this will be a learning experience.

My bad, I was not near my dex to check the poisoned rolls. and although yes, they do help against higher T units, I'd still suggest the scything talons anyday.

Rennoc215 wrote:My bad, I was not near my dex to check the poisoned rolls. and although yes, they do help against higher T units, I'd still suggest the scything talons anyday.

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=Tactics&thread=35244&post=620788

No, ST are barely worth taking over another genestealer. Toxin Sacs are always better.