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Since I also play FoW, I'd think giving IG Mortars smoke would be a good way to increase their utility, it is what they are commonly use for in real life after all.

So something like:

Smoke Rounds: Instead of firing normally, each mortars can fire smoke rounds. When firing smoke rounds, place a large smoke template, (bigger than usually since smoke cloud affects a bigger area.) over anywhere within 36" roll scatter as normal (Subtract BS if direct firing, none if Barraging). until your opponent's next turn the smoke template counts as linear and area terrain for the purpose of cover saves.
A unit containing multiple Mortars must all fire smoke rounds if you choose to, in this case you use the multiple barrage rule, but every round after the first will always scatter (when a hit is rolled, scatter in the direction of the small arrow)

I probably worded it poorly, so any advice would help.

I like the idea Jackster however i think it would be way OP with the size for the smoke. especially for the HWS mortars pumping out 3 for only 65 points. As a result, I would suggest that the smoke should use the small blast markers to reduce its power. either that or pay 15 points for the full blast.

I like this idea! To possibility to provide big groups of infantry with cover without having them hug cover would be awesome for blob armies. This would actually give mortars some sense, which again would be great because I love mortars^^. Did you have a 4+ cover save in mind?

Great idea

this would improve mortars greatly. it would also be extremely realistic as many modern day armys use smoke mortar rounds.

TheMicah25 wrote:I like the idea Jackster however i think it would be way OP with the size for the smoke. especially for the HWS mortars pumping out 3 for only 65 points. As a result, I would suggest that the smoke should use the small blast markers to reduce its power. either that or pay 15 points for the full blast.

Well, a small template really wouldnt be big enough to affect anyone.
Given that various SM armies have libby powers to give cover/invul/stealth bubbles I hardly think it breaks the game.

with 3 of the small templates it would take a fair space up. also dont forget that people will most likely still be blocked of full vision due to this template, thus still giving you the 4+ cover save.

furthermore if you had 2 HWS's with mortars you would be blocking the majority of full line of sight for a large portion of the table.

6-5+ cover save as concealment does not = cover. You know, this has me thinking on what other people said about BS modifiers but thats for another thread.
pay another 5 points for the upgrade per mortar.
Small blast, maybe somthing about the smoke drifting or what not, although thats probly for bigger smoke clouds like basilisk shells and what not.

Hmm though I understand that multiple big smoke templated might be a little exessive, making them small isn't really useful, because if you consider the space of three small templates + scattering, they don't really cover a lit of space, somtimes not even enough for one squad. How about making a HWS of three mortars fire D3 big smoke templates? That way if you're lucky you get really good cover and even if you're unlucky you still get some cover.

Thats a good idea for the d3. I actually think this could be an awesome rule, and would love to hear how people playtest it.

Great idea! I hope you don't mind if a make a few suggestions though...

First of all, how about this? Smoke rounds fired as part of a barrage (but not the first round fired) always scatter, but the firing player may re-roll the scatter die.

Secondly, smoke shouldn't offer an actual cover save (as it wouldn't actually deflect anything), but units firing at an enemy unit through a smoke screen must test to check whether or not they can see the target, just as if the Night Fighting rule were in effect. If the Night Fighting rule is in effect, the test is made on 2D6, rather than 2D6 x 3.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Great idea! I hope you don't mind if a make a few suggestions though...

First of all, how about this? Smoke rounds fired as part of a barrage (but not the first round fired) always scatter, but the firing player may re-roll the scatter die.

Secondly, smoke shouldn't offer an actual cover save (as it wouldn't actually deflect anything), but units firing at an enemy unit through a smoke screen must test to check whether or not they can see the target, just as if the Night Fighting rule were in effect. If the Night Fighting rule is in effect, the test is made on 2D6, rather than 2D6 x 3.

Night Fighting seems a bit too powerful though, I can drop a smoke template over a squad of Long fangs and effectively stop them for a round.

Jackster, I don't think that's how night fighting is intended. It's not that you can drop the smoke screen on an enemy unit and said unit must test on everything it shoots. Units shooting at a unit which is covert by smoke must test. As for your example, if you fire the smoke on the long fang squad, then your units have to test for night fighting when you shoot at them (or at least this would be my understanding, considering that smoke is neutral and does not some vanish when covering enemy units ).
This is actually not a bad idea, it makes more sense then an actual cover save, but I don't know if it's OP or not....

Fire_for_effect wrote:Jackster, I don't think that's how night fighting is intended. It's not that you can drop the smoke screen on an enemy unit and said unit must test on everything it shoots. Units shooting at a unit which is covert by smoke must test. As for your example, if you fire the smoke on the long fang squad, then your units have to test for night fighting when you shoot at them (or at least this would be my understanding, considering that smoke is neutral and does not some vanish when covering enemy units ).
This is actually not a bad idea, it makes more sense then an actual cover save, but I don't know if it's OP or not....

yea, but if those long fangs are shooting next turn they'd have to test on 2D6 which would limit their max range to 12". Therefore basically neutralizing them for the turn.
I agree it would be more realistic, but doesnt sound balanced to my understanding.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Secondly, smoke shouldn't offer an actual cover save (as it wouldn't actually deflect anything)

Cover saves aren't just things physically blocking the shot. Just look at smoke launchers.

I'd be completely down with the mortars being able to drop smoke rounds.

A while back, I was involved in a "Player's Guard Codex", and we decided that the Griffon needed alternate ammo choices. We figured a cluster round, a WP round, and an illumination round. But, we didn't pay attention to the man-portable mortars.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Secondly, smoke shouldn't offer an actual cover save (as it wouldn't actually deflect anything)

Cover saves aren't just things physically blocking the shot. Just look at smoke launchers.

Yea, I am sure standing behind a wall wouldnt block a LC shot, but it gives you cover save because you are now harder to hit.

And I think I like the D3 large blast idea, it does roughly account for outside factors like wind direction and such. But what if there is 2 Mortars left? Do they should D2 templates now?

How about just blocking LOS instead of cover?

Luke_Prowler wrote:How about just blocking LOS instead of cover?

Wouldnt that be too OP? Drop a plate on a squad carrying heavy weapons and they arent shooting for a turn.

Note that Tau Blacksun filters, being essentially Infrared devices, would ignore smoke.

Unless the smoke also reflects thermal energy, or is otherwise opaque to thermal imaging.

Like modern smoke screens that use phosphorous.

There are modern smoke screens that can obscure targets in the IR spectrum, as well as smoke screens dense enough to block lasers from target designators or range finders. Add in a bit about some radar-blocking chaff and some kind of psi-reflective something or other, and you've fluffed out some smoke rounds that block any 40k unit's line of sight.

I think at best it should give stealth and at best a 6+ cover save (unless already in cover then a 3+). And it has to be used in the Movement phase and stops the HWS from shooting in their shooting phase.

Make is something like if one of the blast templates actually hits a unit they get the stealth and 6+.

If you incorprate rolling to check range and that stuff its makes it more of an offensive weapon. It should also limit the shooting ability of the guys INSIDE the smoke screen, somthing like -1 to their BS.

This is a good idea, actually a very good idea.

Probably best to keep it simple though or it won't get picked up as a rule.

Thinking of real world uses of smoke though this has a lot of scope.

Real world:
Using smoke to mark targets for aircraft and armour.
Game rule:
A mini with a smoke grenade can, in the shooting phase mark a target that is within a certain (very close) range in stead of shooting to give skimmers, tanks or large vehicles a +1 or +2 to hit.

Real world:
Using smoke to give concealment from fire.
Game rule:
Hand thrown smoke grenades can put a small template directly over the mini who threw it.
Mortar and artillery smoke can be fired at friendly and enemy units or just anywhere really to give barrage large template smoke, you must fire smoke first, before shooting so that you have to sacrifice the potentially wounding shots of both the artillery team and any friendly units inside the smoke. Shooting smoke at the enemy wouldn't be that much of an advantage since any troops in the smoke could move out of it before shooting.
Would be quite handy for denying HW teams though.

You could treat is as exactly what it is, a big wall of smoke you can't see through. You can shoot template weapons into it, fire blind if you like but you can't select a target.

If you are in the smoke you can't shoot.

One thing to remember though is that (currently) smoke rounds are actually quite dangerous, a friend of mine was killed in Afghanistan when a smoke round landed directly on him.
Any model hit directly (friend of foe) by the smoke round treats it as if being hit by a lethal round from the same weapons system.

Great idea though, really like it.


BTW, are you the same Fireknife as the one on Arnie's?

rob-or-ross wrote:BTW, are you the same Fireknife as the one on Arnie's?

Nope, just a popular tau player forum name i suppose hah

rob-or-ross wrote:This is a good idea, actually a very good idea.

Probably best to keep it simple though or it won't get picked up as a rule.

Thinking of real world uses of smoke though this has a lot of scope.

Real world:
Using smoke to mark targets for aircraft and armour.
Game rule:
A mini with a smoke grenade can, in the shooting phase mark a target that is within a certain (very close) range in stead of shooting to give skimmers, tanks or large vehicles a +1 or +2 to hit.

Real world:
Using smoke to give concealment from fire.
Game rule:
Hand thrown smoke grenades can put a small template directly over the mini who threw it.
Mortar and artillery smoke can be fired at friendly and enemy units or just anywhere really to give barrage large template smoke, you must fire smoke first, before shooting so that you have to sacrifice the potentially wounding shots of both the artillery team and any friendly units inside the smoke. Shooting smoke at the enemy wouldn't be that much of an advantage since any troops in the smoke could move out of it before shooting.
Would be quite handy for denying HW teams though.

You could treat is as exactly what it is, a big wall of smoke you can't see through. You can shoot template weapons into it, fire blind if you like but you can't select a target.

If you are in the smoke you can't shoot.

One thing to remember though is that (currently) smoke rounds are actually quite dangerous, a friend of mine was killed in Afghanistan when a smoke round landed directly on him.
Any model hit directly (friend of foe) by the smoke round treats it as if being hit by a lethal round from the same weapons system.

Great idea though, really like it.


BTW, are you the same Fireknife as the one on Arnie's?

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

Secondly, I love the ruleset you came up with here. How many PPM would you estimate the cost at, and what would the range be for marking targets? Maybe 2d6"?

Thank you for your consideration, just dumb luck I'm afraid.
Things like that happen all the time in war.

As for ranges and points, I'm not sure.

The ranges are all messed up in 40K, for example you can move 6" on foot in a turn but the maximum range of a standard infantry weapon is 36".
That means (in terms of real ranges) that 36" is roughly equal to 600m so you can move 100m in a turn.
Seems OK.

That means a thrown grenade shouldn't be able to travel more than d3 at the absolute maximum.

That also means the models are more than 15m tall and that a blast template has a bloody huge kill area, way more than is realistic.

I'd say no more than d3 for realism and no more than 8", perhaps d6+2 for gameplay.

As for points, I don't have enough experience playing the 5th edition rules to be able to give an idea of a points value that won't unbalance the game.

Sorry.

Smoke Grenades...5ppm
maybe a squad price for guardsman


When a squad runs they may choose to deploy smoke grenades. The squad immediately gains the stealth special rule (if in the open a 5+ cover save, this includes the stealth bonus) which lasts until the next owning players turn.

Possibly thinking that units gaining cover from shooting through them get + 1 cover or -1 BS havent decided yet

Keep it simple. Make it work as close to vehicle smoke launchers as possible.

A squad equipped with smoke grenades can "pop smoke" in the shooting phase instead of shooting. They can still run, but they cannot charge. Gives a 4+ cover save to the squad until the start of their next turn, but they do not count as in cover for the purpose of HtH.

If equipped with smoke, an IG mortar squad at full strength (3 mortars) or a griffon can fire a smoke mission. This is represented as a single 48" ordnance template barrage, no damage. Any unit with half or more of its models under the template, or any vehicle more than 50% covered by the template, gets a 4+ cover save until the start of their next turn. As above, does not count as in cover in HtH. Units that have already shot this turn cannot receive a cover save from smoke rounds (this keeps you from firing your big guns, then hiding them).

Hope Guard players have the money to shell out more templates

I think keep it at the 5+ cover, as for the range i'm thinking it might work as Sx3" so a guardsmen could throw it 9" while a marine could throw it 12".

Alternatively you could keep it simpler then that and just do D6+S to keep the random distance?