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I'm seeing a lot of good resin miniatures pop up more and more in Dakka, manufacturers such as Scibor. All good stuff as I said but is the price going to deter people from buying more than a couple of models? Their sci-fi range in particular is very impressive but I fail to see how you could realistically be able to afford to build an army of them. Perhaps these companies should concentrate on the bits market or is that a too blinkered view? My standpoint is that I like a lot of what they do but I'll never be able to afford it, and if I did it may be to just buy some of the shoulder pads or whatever, just to see what they are like.
I had high hopes for all these small manufacturing places giving a great realistically priced alternatives to GW and finecast but it seems like they might be pricing themselves out of sales also. I know they've got to take in manufacture and production costs to make it viable, but if you are not selling a lot what is the point?
For example would you say it was viable in all senses to construct a 'not space marine army'? It is mind boggling how much in financial terms it would cost to say build a 2000 point force. Is it worth it? The simple answer is no. Some might say that 'Ah! But you are only meant to have these 'not' figures as stand alone heroes/army leaders'. What is the point? You will have a solitary figure who vaguely resembles the rest of your army but is not quite there.
There is no real incentive for me to buy these figures as it stands at the moment. Seriously, no-one needs to tell me how much plastic manufacturing costs but if manufacturers are going to offer us great figures they have to be realistic in how they sell them. If these figures were done in plastic and sold in boxes of five at a lower price I'd buy, the quality the likes of Scibor has is great, but if they are going to cost in the region of £15 to £20 per figure, forget it! I'll say somrthing revolutionary at this point:I honestly think the time for resin figures has come and gone, if they are using a material that is cheaper manufacturing wise than the alternatives yet they still insist on charging high prices for the finished product, is it worth it?
So what are your thoughts? I'd like to hear from some of the manufacturers also, how do they view their ranges in terms of sales, are they meant to be 'one off' purchases or are they of the mistaken belief that people will buy whole massed armies from them?
This is not a rant. I posted a few years ago speculating on whether these small companies could eventually become more mainstream with their products. The answer back then seemed to be no. Today I'd say the answer is still no. Simply because resin may be cheaper to use in manufacture but it is not cheaper to the consumer.
So I'll end with this: Resin is dead, Long live plastic.

If the cash is available to someone, and they like the idea/aesthetic, then, yeah, someone will take 10+ minis no problem, maybe an army (and with 40k there are plenty of elite low model count armies out there).

It comes down to the individual perception of value/worth. Personally I would treat Scibors product as cabinet product, Something nice to paint/convert, I see value in their proposition.

I don't think you are intended to make an entire army using Scibor miniatures. They are display pieces or for small units if you want wargames pieces.

Most of their not-Marines appear to work out at £10 if you get the bodies, heads and arms. Which is a lot, but it's the characters that are £15-20.

I suppose you can make a whole army if you have the money. You could just get the heads or shoulder pads and convert from marines to do it cheaper.

But I'm pretty sure they are not catering to a market of people making 2000 point armies, they are catering to customers buying much less than that. So no, I don't think they are blinkered or demonstrating that the time for resin has come and gone.

While I agree with some of your points, I always get a little bothered by statements like:
'but if manufacturers are going to offer us great figures they have to be realistic in how they sell them'

These companies are charging top dollar for products because people are willing to pay. If Scribor or GW or any other company wasn't making decent money they wouldn't put out new stuff anymore.

I few these companies the same way we view oil companies here in the US. I remember when everyone was outraged when gas hit $3 a gallon...people still bought gas...I remember when people were outraged when gas hit $4 a gallon...in time people got used to it. Not when gas drops down to $3.50 a gallon I get excited cause its cheaper. People get conditioned over time to pay more for the same product

Its all down to the cash dude. There will always be room for niche products in any hobby, especially in the sci-Fi and fantasy miniatures market. Just look at FW's decision to produce the Tau Manta for stupid money. People will still buy things in resin, but having a whole 2000pt army for instance, is out of range of most of us mere mortals. Having the odd resin figure "cos it looks nice and I wanna paint it" is something we can all afford!

I think you are missing something here and that is these small companies have to not only cover manufacturing costs but their own costs of living too. Scibor probably could very easily cut the cost of a miniature in half and still make a profit on the miniature but can he make a living selling it at that price point?

This is going to sound a bit harsh, but have you ever considered that there are people who both make more money and have more money avalible to spend on the hobby...

If there wasn't a market for these products and people willing to pay these products wouldn't exsist.

Slipstream wrote:So I'll end with this: Resin is dead, Long live plastic.

No.

Resin manufacturing lives and prospers, whether you like it or not.

i have a couple of scibor pieces and i used them to create character models......lets be realistic scibor and chapterhouse are doing some great work.......they will get the sales

Plastic still has massive startup costs. Therefore, there's room for an option that is relatively easy to cast, holds detailwell, and is good to work with (as long as you don't inhale the dust).

Have you considered playing one of the games that is not 40k and uses resin? The firestorm armada starter box I got was 40 before shipping and contained roughly three times the actual model by volume that a GW terminator box comes with.

Balance wrote:Plastic still has massive startup costs. Therefore, there's room for an option that is relatively easy to cast, holds detailwell, and is good to work with (as long as you don't inhale the dust).

REsin doesn't just hold detail well, it gives you the most accurate casting possible.

Balance wrote:Plastic still has massive startup costs. Therefore, there's room for an option that is relatively easy to cast, holds detailwell, and is good to work with (as long as you don't inhale the dust).

Plastic an resin costs aren't what drive these prices by in large. Batch sizes and the rules of largescale manufacturing are. This thread is kinda off base and confused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Catyrpelius wrote:

Balance wrote:Plastic still has massive startup costs. Therefore, there's room for an option that is relatively easy to cast, holds detailwell, and is good to work with (as long as you don't inhale the dust).

REsin doesn't just hold detail well, it gives you the most accurate casting possible.

That depends on the casting method, type of resin, and type of item being made. Resin isn't a chemical formula or method, it's a rough descriptor of a nebulous class of semi sticky materials, of which I'm pretty sure plastic is one.

Think you are missing the point of these figures.

Doubt if any one is expecting to build a 2000 point army from Scribor, or that is Scribor's intention.
I may be wrong but I have always assumed they are more collectors pieces or for characters/small units.

You also need to remember that there will be a much smaller production run than GW are making.

Catyrepelius, resin is perfectly capable of holding detail well. It is used a lot in aftermarket detail sets some of which are works of art in their own right.

Ninja'd by Shuma

coming from someone who is making an army out of custom mini's, shush it

- Edited by insaniak. Dakka does not and can not endorse copyright infringement. -

Slipstream wrote: I know they've got to take in manufacture and production costs to make it viable, but if you are not selling a lot what is the point?

What makes you think they're not selling?

The fact that you find them expensive doesn't mean that everyone else shares the same view. Whatever your opinion of Scibor's work (I'm not personally a fan, but can see why some people like his stuff), he's built his business up from selling the occasional conversions on eBay to doing commission work, to producing his own range of resin bits and miniatures that has been growing steadily. He's obviously doing something right...

Companies that price their miniatures out of line with what people are willing to pay for them either wind up lowering their prices or going out of business.

...if they are using a material that is cheaper manufacturing wise than the alternatives yet they still insist on charging high prices for the finished product, is it worth it?

That depends entirely on the product.

You're not just paying for the raw materials. You're paying for the design, and in some cases for the name.

Thanks for the responses. Somewhere down the line all manufacturers are going to have to consider their options if they still work with metal. At the moment more and more are going for resin. My concern is that everyone seems to think well if 'GW can get away with so can we'. By that I mean that they are jumping in at price point where there is already outcry. In the modern world for most, cars are essential, figures are not. What happens when all resin figures reach the £20 point, who will buy then? Even if you can still afford to spend, will you?. What will happen to the wargames community when it is no longer viable to buy an army to paint? Will we see battles with 1 or 2 figures a side?(humor)
My concern is also for these small manufacturers, it's ok to state that they need to make a living but what happens when people no longer buy in sufficient quantity to enable them to do so? Ask any manufacturer whether they'd prefer to sell one model for display purposes or 10 for paint and play purposes. I'm perfectly happy that all these great figures are available but the more the cost, the less is sold and the manfacturer's living is out the window, in a small manufacturer's business this is more risky as at a lower sales level if orders slow down they are in trouble.
Also can I just point out I am not picking on Scibor, I just happened to mention them in reference/and to highlight my points.
I worked for a giftware manufacturer for a good many years, using resin. The problems always came when there was a price rise in the cost of resin and when the manufacturing rise was added to the product price(and we are not talking a lot here) shops would baulk at this and either order a lot less or not order at all. I can see the same thing happening in the wargames world and just find it a horrifying prospect. I stand by my opinion on resin; I believe as a financially viable miniature casting medium it has maybe 2 years before costs for resin(which contains oil and is therefore governed by world prices) may start to really hit wargames figure makers. Your mention of petrol price, Ironic silence, was timely! Everytime oil prices rise I can guarentee from experience that very quickly after an announcement about a rise, resin makers will be despatching a letter to all its customers telling them that the price was going up. In one three month period we (the company I worked for) got 4 letters telling us the of the change. And they were steep!We went from buying (4) 300 kilo barrels to one. Of course like petrol companies they were never keen to reduce this when oil prices went down...

Slipstream wrote:Thanks for the responses. Somewhere down the line all manufacturers are going to have to consider their options if they still work with metal. At the moment more and more are going for resin. My concern is that everyone seems to think well if 'GW can get away with so can we'. By that I mean that they are jumping in at price point where there is already outcry. In the modern world for most, cars are essential, figures are not. What happens when all resin figures reach the £20 point, who will buy then? Even if you can still afford to spend, will you?. What will happen to the wargames community when it is no longer viable to buy an army to paint? Will we see battles with 1 or 2 figures a side?(humor)
My concern is also for these small manufacturers, it's ok to state that they need to make a living but what happens when people no longer buy in sufficient quantity to enable them to do so? Ask any manufacturer whether they'd prefer to sell one model for display purposes or 10 for paint and play purposes. I'm perfectly happy that all these great figures are available but the more the cost, the less is sold and the manfacturer's living is out the window, in a small manufacturer's business this is more risky as at a lower sales level if orders slow down they are in trouble.
Also can I just point out I am not picking on Scibor, I just happened to mention them in reference/and to highlight my points.
I worked for a giftware manufacturer for a good many years, using resin. The problems always came when there was a price rise in the cost of resin and when the manufacturing rise was added to the product price(and we are not talking a lot here) shops would baulk at this and either order a lot less or not order at all. I can see the same thing happening in the wargames world and just find it a horrifying prospect. I stand by my opinion on resin; I believe as a financially viable miniature casting medium it has maybe 2 years before costs for resin(which contains oil and is therefore governed by world prices) may start to really hit wargames figure makers. Your mention of petrol price, Ironic silence, was timely! Everytime oil prices rise I can guarentee from experience that very quickly after an announcement about a rise, resin makers will be despatching a letter to all its customers telling them that the price was going up. In one three month period we (the company I worked for) got 4 letters telling us the of the change. And they were steep!We went from buying (4) 300 kilo barrels to one. Of course like petrol companies they were never keen to reduce this when oil prices went down...

I really don't think you understand just how little the material has to do with the price.

Why does every miniature made need to be appropriate for Games Workshop games?

Just because a company produces something that might possibly be useable in a GW game doesn't mean that was the intended purpose or that they need to take that into account when determining SRP.

Slipstream wrote: My concern is also for these small manufacturers, it's ok to state that they need to make a living but what happens when people no longer buy in sufficient quantity to enable them to do so?

Then they revise their business model, or they go out of business.

You seem to be suggesting that all of these businesses are just jumping blindly into the market, using GW as a benchmark for their prices, and then just tottering along wondering why nobody's buying their stuff until they go bankrupt.

That's not really quite how it generally works.

The third party manufacturers are using resin because they are often small-scale operations and switching to plastic (or even metal) isn't economical. GW can produce plastic miniatures because they sell a pantload of them, offsetting the cost of higher initial production cost by repeated use.

However, while Scibor are expensive, you can build a 2000 point army for not a (significant) amount more than what some people spend on competitve 40k armies.

Consider this competive Blood Angels army. The total cost (retail) is $730+.

Or this competitive Space Wolves army. The total retail cost is $750+.

If you move to a more toned-down list, like this Space Marine Army, the total cost is only $560. If you upgrade that with Scibor marines instead of regular SM and (for no particular reason) Forgeworld Dreadnoughts, the price is increased to $825.

While a $250 difference in model cost is a lot of money, it's really not significantly more than the competitve players are paying for their armies. And if I were given the choice between a Scibor/Forgeworld Ultramarines army or $70 and a competitve Space Wolves army, I'm pretty sure I know which one I would pick. Plus, the Scibor/FW army is going to still look bad-ass in 6th edition while your competitive BA army will need to be upgraded.

...you could also upgrade to FW Rhino doors for another $45 or so.

* Armies picked randomly from the first page of the Army List forum.

I know someone making N-gauge models and casts them all in metal, most are probably £4-10, and being N gauge they are tiny. But he has been going 4 years and is only now effectively making money because of the significant start up costs. He wasn't keen on resin because of the fumes in his house. It's effectively a retirement hobby.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I know someone making N-gauge models and casts them all in metal, most are probably £4-10, and being N gauge they are tiny. But he has been going 4 years and is only now effectively making money because of the significant start up costs. He wasn't keen on resin because of the fumes in his house. It's effectively a retirement hobby.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the smaller companies are this way.

'I make what I want, because its what I want. Prehaps you'd like it too.'

I know I'm not planning on making millions off Brushfire (It sure would be nice though!), but its the game we want to play, and several others seem to enjoy it as well.

Why should Privateer Press, or Scibor, or any other manufacturer, sell their product cheaply, when we have demonstrated that we're willing to pay a premium for high quality? Scibor makes really nice stuff. 90% of his price is for the art.

Wargames Factory is going after the cheap-figure market, and they are getting a lot of my money for Horse & Musket miniatures.

But if I see a figure from Scibor that I really want to paint, I'll buy it. Because I want to paint it, not because I plan to build an army around it. If Scibor were selling plastic figures in boxes of five, I'd have no incentive to buy.

ironicsilence wrote:I few these companies the same way we view oil companies here in the US. I remember when everyone was outraged when gas hit $3 a gallon...people still bought gas...I remember when people were outraged when gas hit $4 a gallon...in time people got used to it. Not when gas drops down to $3.50 a gallon I get excited cause its cheaper. People get conditioned over time to pay more for the same product

Respectfully, this is not an equivalent analogy. Gas is not an optional luxury item you can do without; if the price of gas goes up then I can't choose not to go to work, for example. I can only cut down on my discretionary spending. As for your second point, people "getting conditioned over time to the new prices", again that's not exactly right, or else people would still be driving 8mpg muscle cars like the 70's. The cost of gas has dramatically influenced the car industry over the years.

I doubt if smaller company prices are based on what GW thinks it can get away with

I am only surmising, but I assume GW can expect a lot more sales of an equivalent model over a longer period.
All the design and production costs have to be spread over fewer expected sales.

I think your sense of the market is a bit out of whack. If you look around widely you will find many manufacturers providing 28mm figures in the following price ranges.

GW
Plastic mass figures = £1.50
Plastic or Resin character figures = £8 to £12

Non GW
Plastic mass figures = 40p (Limited historical ranges)
Metal mass figures = £1.00 to £1.50
Metal character figures = £4 to £8
Resin character figures = £8 to £12

Yes, the independent character figures are more expensive than the GW plastic mass figures. The independent mass figures are cheaper than the GW plastic mass figures.

If you want to build an army of non-GW models there are plenty of choices and you can easily build it for less than using GW.

@ Killkrazy - the other side of that is that historical ranges have much higher competition and thus the price is driven lower. When you get a proprietary aesthetic, you create a natural monopoly and can jack up the prices reasonably high.

I agree with fellblade in that, small companies see what GW is charging, think "well, people obviously will pay at least that much" and base their price from there. As some/most are representing a relatively unique upgrade on an already premium product line, they charge even a little more than GW. And people obviously pay it.

Doubt it. cf my post above ^^

If I made space knights and wanted to sell them I would have to make them attractive enough in terms of price and quality to sell.

Otherwise folks will just stay with the GW version

Ouze wrote:

ironicsilence wrote:I few these companies the same way we view oil companies here in the US. I remember when everyone was outraged when gas hit $3 a gallon...people still bought gas...I remember when people were outraged when gas hit $4 a gallon...in time people got used to it. Not when gas drops down to $3.50 a gallon I get excited cause its cheaper. People get conditioned over time to pay more for the same product

Respectfully, this is not an equivalent analogy. Gas is not an optional luxury item you can do without; if the price of gas goes up then I can't choose not to go to work, for example. I can only cut down on my discretionary spending. As for your second point, people "getting conditioned over time to the new prices", again that's not exactly right, or else people would still be driving 8mpg muscle cars like the 70's. The cost of gas has dramatically influenced the car industry over the years.

I didn't think that was a very good comparison, either. Gas sells at $4 a gallon because you need it, you can't just quit buying gas or buy it cheaper from someone else.