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Ok so my question is pretty simple and forgive me if it's glaringly obvious in the rules. Can a barrage weapon (I think thats the right term) target Harlies using VOT without rolling to see them. The reason I ask is that someone tried using a barrage weapon (IG Manticore) on me during DOW and he just placed the template where he wanted as it didn't require line of sight to hit and just rolls a scatter. The theory being he can fire missiles anywhere he chooses without needing to see a target. This to me seems a bit wrong and would seriously jeapordize my Harlies should I run them in a game against IG as it would effectively make VOT null and void if he can just drop missiles on top of them without actually being able to see them.

Nevermind, I'm wrong.

Meaning they're game for anyone using weapons that don't require LOS?

Veil of Tears has nothing to do with line of sight. If an attack targets the Harlequins and the target is not inside Veil of Tear's range limit then the unit "may not fire this turn".
Please note that barrage weapons still need a target, but that Veil of Tears only protects the Harlequins if the Harlequins are the target - stray templates or markers will still hit them!

As for the exact consequences of the wording in regards to units that can target more than one unit (Long Fangs, Artillery), I'll leave for debate whether this means that they may not shoot on the second target, either.

Barrage must target a unit just like all other weapons in the game. Veil of Tear triggers when the unit is targeted.

LoS has nothing to do with veil of tears.

Thanks for the replies, but forgive me if i'm missing the point but doesn't veil of tears kind of work like trying to seeing a unit on DOW? If you want to target the Harlies you need to roll 2D6 x 2 and that would be how far you can see in relation to whether they are in range for shooting so LOS is relevant. e.g The Harlies are 18 inches away, a Manticore wants to attack them so has to roll a total of 18 or more on 2D6 x 2 (i.e a 5 and a 5 multiplied by 2 = 20) and, if he doesn't manage it he can't attack them. Furthermore if they are further than 24 inches away then they cannot be targeted at all as it is out of the dice range. That is my understanding of the rule anyway.

So my question was, if a barrage attack doesn't need to see a unit to hit it (LOS) therefore it does not need to roll for DOW or VOT as it can just declare it is shooting there and roll for scatter?

Sorry if i'm making it sound more complicated than it is!

It's similar to DoW and (Nightfight) yes, however even in those scenarios you need to be able to target the unit. It doesn't change anything about LOS just the (threat) range

neilvicks wrote:So my question was, if a barrage attack doesn't need to see a unit to hit it (LOS) therefore it does not need to roll for DOW or VOT as it can just declare it is shooting there and roll for scatter?

VoT works against a unit selecting the clowns as a target. When firing a barrage weapon you select a target (in LOS or not), place the blast and roll scatter. If you want to select the clowns as a target you roll for VoT.

Yes you need to be in range to target them. So here is how it goes declare you target the unit roll the dice to see if you see them if failed you do nothing. Now you can drift onto them.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:It's similar to DoW and (Nightfight) yes, however even in those scenarios you need to be able to target the unit. It doesn't change anything about LOS just the (threat) range

FWIW Ordnance Barrage weapons can fire during Nightfight even if they are outside of Nightfight range, they just scatter an extra D6.

Normall scatter for not being able to see a unit due to nightfight from a barrage maybe ordnance barrage will roll an extra d6 if you cannot see them. Veil of Tears specifically says that that you cannot shoot.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:FWIW Ordnance Barrage weapons can fire during Nightfight even if they are outside of Nightfight range, they just scatter an extra D6.

Though it is often played that way, that is not really the case. Outside of Nightfight range means the unit cannot fire at all, not that the unit cannot see its target.

night fight is different Barrage a ordnance barrage in night fight add d6" to the distance(as specified in the night fight rules); VoT changes targeting altogether and the eldar FAQ specifically states that the firing model must still "spot" them(even though they do not require LOS):
"Q. Do barrage weapons have to roll to spot a unit of
Harlequins with Veil of Tears?
A. Yes, barrage weapons must still roll to spot them,
and cannot fire if they fail to spot them."

Yea, I think I misread.

Twice.

kirsanth wrote:Outside of Nightfight range means the unit cannot fire at all, not that the unit cannot see its target.

It actually means both, the first because of the second. Night Fighting rules provide a clear exception to barrage and ordnance barrage weapons.

Thanks for clearing it up, i'm happy they have to roll for VOT regardless of circumstance, and no success no shooting!

I think the OP is asking if you can target a spot on a table and roll scatter from that. The answer is no. The current edition rules for barrage weapons require you to select a target first. Then you place the marker over a model in the target. Then you check range. Then you roll scatter.