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First and foremost congratulations on your placing! You make us marine players proud.

My question is about the Whirlwind Scorpius. Isn't that a relic which makes you take an additional elite slot? What is good to run with that then?

So I have been thinking about this. The question is what do I want to get out of the last selection in the list? My initial thought was to go with a simple 6pt cenobyte servitor unit. Stick them on an objective and just sit on a backfield objective the entire game. They are a BT unit so in a pinch you could always use it as another source of 4+ deny and they allow the BT scout units to auto pass moral checks if they are within 12". If I go this route I have about 40pts left to spend in the list. If you cut back on Interessors you may have more points to play around with but I would recommend keeping the squad size to 8-10 so that you are getting the most bang for your buck if/when you decide to upgrade them. I mentioned you could go with a Lt. instead of chronus but I have found chronus is a steal for what he potentially does, I decided to go with an HB on one of my scout units for some mortal wound options and a unit of 3 company veterans with SS and chainswords. My reasoning is that I have a little bit of extra CC and I can chuck some wounds off on Guilliman if needed. Conversely they cheap as a unit and I wouldn't feel bad keeping them sitting on a backfield objective the entire game.

Ancients are the only thing worth running if you have any models to benefit. Otherwise, Aggressors are never a bad pick.

Agreed on the ancients. Its too bad the army isnt more infantry based to benifit more from this dude. I would love to get a unit of agressors but Im so limited on points when its all said and done.

Did you bring him just because it is cheap? I find him really useful in any game I play with him!

Not at all! Him being cheap as chips is the icing on the cake. The 2+ BS is amazing. He repairs his own vehicle (awsome!). As long as you dont roll a 1 when his vehicle dies you now have a character that can still do things. He saves you a drop when deploying and makes a kill shot predator straight up deadly!

For what it’s worth, I think the Scorpius isn’t worth taking a tax unit just to unlock. It does do a job, and pretty well, but it’s pretty fragile for its price. If there’s a lot of LoS-blocking terrain then it’s going to live longer and will be more valuable, but otherwise it’s unspectacular. The tax unit effectively just adds to the Scorpius’ cost, as they are pretty unlikely to accomplish anything. That changes a lot if there’s another elite unit that you actually want, obviously.

I hadn’t given much consideration to the idea of a techmarine for my army. I probably should. Now his servo arms are free he’s come down in cost a lot. Actually his flamer and plasma pistol are cheaper too.

This will also help reduce the cost of a TFC, down by almost 30 points. At 92 points (if my maths is right this time!) for the gun and gunner it’s actually a pretty compelling choice now, I think. It does a similar job to the Scorpius but is much easier to hide and brings a useful little character along with it.

It would also let me take either my relic Deredeo or Leviathan. Hmm...

Mandragola wrote:
For what it’s worth, I think the Scorpius isn’t worth taking a tax unit just to unlock. It does do a job, and pretty well, but it’s pretty fragile for its price. If there’s a lot of LoS-blocking terrain then it’s going to live longer and will be more valuable, but otherwise it’s unspectacular. The tax unit effectively just adds to the Scorpius’ cost, as they are pretty unlikely to accomplish anything. That changes a lot if there’s another elite unit that you actually want, obviously.

I hadn’t given much consideration to the idea of a techmarine for my army. I probably should. Now his servo arms are free he’s come down in cost a lot. Actually his flamer and plasma pistol are cheaper too.

This will also help reduce the cost of a TFC, down by almost 30 points. At 92 points (if my maths is right this time!) for the gun and gunner it’s actually a pretty compelling choice now, I think. It does a similar job to the Scorpius but is much easier to hide and brings a useful little character along with it.

It would also let me take either my relic Deredeo or Leviathan. Hmm...

Deredeo is an Elite so you still have to manage a elite unit (which I guess you can take the 20 point servitors for backfield objectives?)

Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.

Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.

Mandragola wrote:
Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.

Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.

All of the FW Dreads are just randomly placed in slots. I am half-surprised the Leviathan isn't in Fast Attack.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Oh yeah I keep forgetting. That thing seems like a heavy support dread if anything is. Shame as it would work quite well with the FTC. He could repair it a bit.

Honestly the three predators are probably the best option. I’m just fishing around for alternatives to see if anything is out there. It probably isn’t.

All of the FW Dreads are just randomly placed in slots. I am half-surprised the Leviathan isn't in Fast Attack.

Or even put into a LoW spot lol

But yeah I feel like three predators will get you more. You just need some larger distractions so they won't get focused down.

Probably true. And I’ve got my two repulsors to be the distraction unit.

To be honest I’m not a huge fan of the predators, but I can’t think of what else to take. I think one option would be to drop the predators and one repulsor for a knight crusader and some helverins. Not sure what’s better, though the knights would be more durable.

I've always liked predators. With Chronus, the three predators, and Gman, and then the stratagem they can do a ton of damage. Having the autocannons do 4 damage does surprise most opponents.

I've tested the Knight + Helverins before with moderate success. Probably just my meta but most people in my area prepare to take down knights, with more Knights or other means.

Though I am tempted to run 3 predators, 2 repulsors and a knight just to see lol

Had another game last night against my Eldar-playing friend*. This time we played narrow the search, with table quarters deployment. I deployed and went first again.

My list was the captain, lieutenant, 8 intercessors with a fist in a repulsor and 2x10 intercessors on foot. Then I had a knight crusader (Thermal cannon and ironstorm), an armiger warglaive and a helverin from my House Taranis army.

The Eldar army was all Alaitoc. Battalion of 15 guardians, 2x5 rangers, a farseer and warlock. Spearhead of 2 fire prisms, a warlock and 9 reapers. Air wing of Crimson hunter exarch and 2 hemlocks. And 2 wave serpents.

I made a bit of a mistake with the crusader, sending it forward to kick in a wave serpent that had deployed forward. It actually didn’t kill the serpent and then had all sorts of horrible psychic powers done to it, followed by a load of shooting, so it died straight away. There was no need for this and I was kicking myself a bit. Meanwhile my intercessors flooded the centre of the board and got into cover. I killed a fire prism and all but one of the rangers.

As the game progressed I managed to get rid of most of the scary things in the enemy army. The armiger made it into combat but couldn’t kill much and the helverin wasn’t accomplishing a great deal against the Alaitoc planes either. I did manage to kill a hemlock and the wave serpents, and got an intercessor into combat with the dark reapers on turn 3 (although four of his friends were killed by overwatch on the way in!).

The real stars were the intercessors. Once they were on the objectives in cover they weren’t going anywhere, and that won me the mission. The scary enemy stuff was busy trying to kill my knights and repulsor, leaving our troops to fight each other, which was horribly one-sided. I won the game without my opponent ever really threatening the central objective.

Things definitely didn’t go all my way. A hemlock took my captain out (after he killed a wave serpent) by smiting and then hitting him with its guns. There doesn’t seem to be any real defense against this, other than to try and fully surround characters at all times.

I was pretty unimpressed by the Helverin. In theory eldar flyers are exactly the kind of target it’s designed to kill. In reality it needed at least a 5+ to hit them and they were getting 4+ saves (or 3+ on turn 1 as my opponent paid to be in cover). It just wasn’t enough of a threat.

In future I think I’ll just run two armigers, which seem to complement the intercessors really well. The intercessors are great against hordes while the armigers are speedy and good against tougher things. Or at least they can get in the way of tougher things for a bit.

The armiger actually did decent damage to the eldar tanks because it could easily get within 12” of them, so it hit them fairly easily and got past their armour. But unlike the helverin it also did damage in the assault phase. Or at least it would have done if the farseer hadn’t passed all his invulnerable saves!

Here’s a revised army list, based on what I’ve got out of these games. It’s exactly 1750, which is the value of this event.

Battalion - 5CPs

HQ Primaris Captain 92
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist

HQ Primaris Lieutenant 74
Master-crafted Auto Bolt Rifle

Troops 8 Intercessors 145
Power Fist
Auxiliary Grenade launcher

Troops 10 Intercessors 174
Power Sword
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers

Troops 10 Intercessors 174
Power Sword
2 Auxiliary Grenade launchers

Dedicated Transport Repulsor 299
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Ironhail heavy stubber
Two Krakstorm grenade launchers
Three Storm Bolters
Two fragstorm grenade launchers

Super-heavy detachment - 3CPs

Lord of War Knight Crusader 468
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Thermal Cannon
Ironstorm Missile Pod

Lord of War Armiger Warglaive 162
Heavy Stubber

Lord of War Armiger Warglaive 162
Heavy Stubber

*If it’s ever possible to be friends with an Eldar player

You basically described a problem that almost everyone has with the Eldar Fliers.

Not much to do outside spamming Stalkers with a Chapter Master nearby.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You basically described a problem that almost everyone has with the Eldar Fliers.

Not much to do outside spamming Stalkers with a Chapter Master nearby.

That or ignore them and kill everything else. Eldar flyers are annoying but they won't have time to get rid of 30 intercessors on objectives, and they don't score themselves.

My poijnt is that I don't think it's worth taking units to kill eldar flyers if those units still can't actually do the job. A stalker averages 2 damage to an Eldar flyer, or 3 near a chapter master. It's not enough, especially in a unit that's not that good against other stuff. Meanwhile an armiger warglaive within 12" does about 3 damage as well.

Marines are one of the armies with an obvious choice of TH + jumppack and just beat it to death as no stacking minus to hit stacking shenanigans etc in CC.

But yeah nothing really does well at shooting stacked minus to hit flyers heck even a deredeo is only meh at it and I suspect sicaran autocannons to be faq'd at somepoint.

Ice_can wrote:
Marines are one of the armies with an obvious choice of TH + jumppack and just beat it to death as no stacking minus to hit stacking shenanigans etc in CC.

But yeah nothing really does well at shooting stacked minus to hit flyers heck even a deredeo is only meh at it and I suspect sicaran autocannons to be faq'd at somepoint.

You can only take so many of those is the issue. They also start costing a pretty penny too once you've taken like 4 of them.

Yeah smash captains cost a fair bit - almost as much as a hemlock. And the hemlocks can just go somewhere else.

The thing I've found is that i'm likely to end up within 12" of flyers with my close-range shooting units. Things like repulsors, knights and so on. So they can fire at them with a less bad modifier than dedicated AA stuff further away can do.

So I think my feeling is to not really worry too much about eldar flyers. They are irritating, but they are also expensive and they can be killed with normal stuff, if you even need to.

I've also had a lot of success with a Captain on Bike. This last weekend I had a doubles tournament which I roughly ran:

1000 Points

Captain on Bike - Power Fist, Storm Shield
Aggressors (5) - Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Veterans - 4x Storm Shield, 4 Combi Plas
Veterans - 4x Storm Shield, 4 Combi Plas

Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon
Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon
Repulsor - Shooty options.

My friend ran guard + gallant.

Due to the larger base of the captain on bike his aura goes a little further. He is also survivable with T5 and an additional wound. I gave him the Shield Eternal and let him sit back behind my tank line and then would speed out and take out key units or tie units up to free our objective cappers.

Granted we did terrible that tournament, but the missions were the most awkward ones I have played.

What do you guys think about a salamander outrider detachment with a captain on a bike with storm bolter and thunder hammer (which I'll have to kitbash?)
With him three attack bikes, two with heavy bolters, one with a multi melta and two squads of 3 bikes with two flamers and a combi flamer each including an attack bike with multi melta.
For 512 points I get a bike smash captain, 32 T5 wounds with 3+, 14-16" movement, fifty four, I think, bolter shots, two heavy bolters, six flamers and three multi meltas.
I'm thinking they should be good objective grabbers, with the captain and the flamers being decent charge deterrents. Re-rolling ones with the captain and the salamander tactics giving the multi meltas a guilliman re-roll.

I think that’s probably more bikes than you would want. Rather than an outrider detachment I’d get a battalion with a fast attack choice or two. Basically taking 4 units to get 1cp doesn’t seem worth it when you could have 5 units for 5 cps.

I’ve had some ok results from scout bikers. They all come with shotguns for free and the Sergeant can have a storm bolter. Great dakka. They are a little faster too.

kingheff wrote:
What do you guys think about a salamander outrider detachment with a captain on a bike with storm bolter and thunder hammer (which I'll have to kitbash?)
With him three attack bikes, two with heavy bolters, one with a multi melta and two squads of 3 bikes with two flamers and a combi flamer each including an attack bike with multi melta.
For 512 points I get a bike smash captain, 32 T5 wounds with 3+, 14-16" movement, fifty four, I think, bolter shots, two heavy bolters, six flamers and three multi meltas.
I'm thinking they should be good objective grabbers, with the captain and the flamers being decent charge deterrents. Re-rolling ones with the captain and the salamander tactics giving the multi meltas a guilliman re-roll.

You'd get more bang for your buck doing a different Chapter.

Thanks for the feedback, I must admit I may have got a bit carried away!
Originally I was looking at a techmarine and three attack bikes for a super cheap detachment. Then I wanted to fluff it up for my salamander army...
Attack bikes do look a very solid choice to me though. For 111 pts you get three bikes with12 wounds, six bolters and three heavy bolters. For 115 pts you get five scout bikes with more firepower close up but less wounds and worse saves. Scout bike squads are a great unit and I don't think attack bikes are far behind.
I'd always take a multi melta on one though, both for the fluff and to take advantage of the salamander re-roll.
I

I'm now using intercessors to provide my anti-horde power, and so far it's working. So I've ditched my bikes.

111 points would buy about 6.5 intercessors. You get the same wounds, though spread around more models and easier to get into cover. I'm not sure how 6.5 bolt rifles compares to 6 bolters and 3 heavy bolters - probably not quite as good but not dreadful. And 18 attacks in close combat, if upgraded to veterans, which can be the decisive factor.

You could argue that the bikes are better. The thing is that the intercessors are troops, so they bring CPs (many of which they use up to be fair) and they have objective secured. This makes a really big difference because shifting ~30 veteran intercessors off an objective isn't all that easy to do, especially if they are in cover.

I'm still working out the impact of the changes from Vigilus, chapter approved, the new crimson fist rules and the beta bolters. For now all I can say is that intercessors are an awful lot better than they used to be. A 170 point squad that can fire 40 shots at 30" range is a problem for a lot of people. At only 8.5 points per wound there's no really efficient way to get rid of them.

They are no good at fighting vehicles of course. Against IKs and the like my approach is to field a bunch of my own repulsors and knights. Generally these guys will batter each other to a standstill, but as long as that means the big guns aren't pointed at my intercessors, then the objectives will tend to be mine.

Or at least that's the plan! Doesn't always go that way...

Intercessors are very decent for sure but I tend to use them as backline units.
I'm looking to add more speed to my marines, especially as a long time eldar player, marines do seem to be a bit static.

I can agree on that. The one thing I dislike about the beta bolter rules is that they make you stand still.

The approach I'm taking is for the intercessors to hold the centre while other faster stuff (knights in my case) go forward.

The chapter approved missions place almost all the objectives in the middle of the board, outside of deployment zones. A force of tough obsec guys with respectable fighting abilities helps a lot.

I'm still on my quest to make the best primary marine list I can without Guilliman or a Knight. Here's my newest thought for 2000pts:

Mandragola wrote:

I'm still working out the impact of the changes from Vigilus, chapter approved, the new crimson fist rules and the beta bolters. For now all I can say is that intercessors are an awful lot better than they used to be. A 170 point squad that can fire 40 shots at 30" range is a problem for a lot of people. At only 8.5 points per wound there's no really efficient way to get rid of them.

I've been toying with a GT list for the June throne of skulls with 30 veteran intercessors, robby and multiple dev cents with heavy grav. I've found these guys to hit like a ton of bricks but the cents die pretty easily afterwards, unless they can get a toe in a forest or something. I'm running Ultramarines CT, but want to give the Greyshield a go to get the ignore cover or maybe the RG CT for turn 1.

bort wrote:I'm still on my quest to make the best primary marine list I can without Guilliman or a Knight. Here's my newest thought for 2000pts:

Spoiler:

Loyal 32 - Aquila
Assassin
RG Brigade - Indomidus Crusaders
Smash Captain - Shield Eternal
Primaris Lt - Field Commander - Greyshield, Reliquary of Gathalmor, power sword
Techmarine - Power axe, servo arm
Primaris Ancient - Warlord - Storm of Fire
Deredeo Dreanought - Autocannon
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Las, missile
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
Attack Bike - Heavy bolter
3 Scout Bikes - Storm bolter
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Devastators - Cherub, 2 Heavy bolters, missile
5 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
9 Veteran Intercessors - Power sword
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Sniper rifles
5 Scouts - Bolters

Gives me a lot of bodies, a minor speedy bike contingent, and 13cp for mortal wound strats and double firing the intercessors. I could also take the Emperor Ascendant banner for 2cp or dropping the minimal psychic protection, but with only a few HBs and sniper scouts in the banner radius, not sure if that's worth it. I haven't tried the Greyshield power yet, but figured giving 2 vet intercessor units the ability to reroll a hit/wound or withdraw and shoot for 1 turn seemed worth 1cp.

I wouldn't say I was the most competitive of 40k players, but how will you deal with knights? I have a Gallant/Castellan combo that I think would squish that list pretty hard... Maybe it plays better than it looks? It does have a lot of units, so I imagine it scores well whilst stuff dies all over the place.

Honestly I’m unsure at this point, I haven’t made an open play in quite a while and my friends don’t have a Knight. But, the list is based off Reese’s older UM list core (yes, I know it’s better mortal fishing with Guilliman) and he said he had no issue with knights. Assuming I get to shoot first, the list can definitely 2 turn kill a knight. Figure 5 wounds from devs including strat, 3 wounds from scouts, and 8ish from the dreads. Add in some assorted other shots and that’s killing a regular knight in 1 turn or over half a castellan. If the dreads are dead first, I’m probably ignoring knights unless there’s no better mortal targets.
Edit: Ugh, I should stop posting at work, keep making bonehead mistakes. I wrote the above phrasing thinking a regular knight was 18W not 24, so it's not assorted shots, it's all my shots or throwing in the captain . But, I added up the firepower of the list, if the knight is within range of all my guys, the list can actually on average deal 20some wounds to a T8 target (I'm assuming 3+/4++ not rotated 3++, cause if rotated I'm going to fire at something else). So, realistically it's 2 turns to kill a knight, but it's possible. That's also not counting the assassin, who probably wouldn't ever be targeting a knight, but for theory purposes could be a Vindicare and add another 2 mortals.

The new Warlord Traits in Shadowspear are as follows (note: they can only be given to Phobos Characters):

Shoot and Fade (After making a shooting attack, your Warlord can move as if it was the movement phase. Must advance as well)

Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)

Stealth Adept (-1 from all to-hit rolls against your Warlord.)

Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades or relics)

Princeps of Deceit (as described in the War Com article)

Target Priority (as described in the War Com article)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The new Warlord Traits in Shadowspear are as follows (note: they can only be given to Phobos Characters):

Shoot and Fade (After making a shooting attack, your Warlord can move as if it was the movement phase. Must advance as well)

Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)

Stealth Adept (-1 from all to-hit rolls against your Warlord.)

Marksman's Honours (Add 1 to damage characteristic for ALL shooting weapons your Warlord uses. Reroll hit and wound rolls for your Warlord's shooting attacks. Does not affect grenades or relics)

Princeps of Deceit (as described in the War Com article)

Target Priority (as described in the War Com article)

Could you share with us the source, please?

- Shoot and Fade can have some applications... move your warlord Libby in front of your units, psych away, shoot something and then run back behind your units.
- Master of the Vanguard goes well with melee units or just stuff you want in your enemy's face ASAP
- Stealth Adept comboes nicely with Heroe's Cloak relic from Dark Angels (another -1 to hit)
- Marksman's Honours seems to be the worst of the bunch, as the Phobos characters have terrible ranged weapon choices

Master of the Vanguard might actually make BT TH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Master of the Vanguard might actually make BT TH/SS Termies or Vanguard Vets be able to charge from Deep Strike reliably. Shame we're not allowed the Librarian, and I'm assuming they've all got <PRIMARIS> so no Drop Pods?

Correct. But this is definitely making me think about putting that Lieutenant in Phobos Armor in my Blood Angels. He is a great addition to a CC army.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Master of the Vanguard (Add 1 to all move, advance, and charge rolls to all Chapter units within 6" of your Warlord)

Gogo Aggressors? I mean they would move an average of 10.5 inches a turn lol.