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Hi Dakka,

I'm not sure if this belongs in General or in here, if i've misplaced my question could a mod please move it.

Anyway

I was wondering at what time the would the traitor legions changed their armor colours. For example, at the siege of Terra, would the World Eaters have red and gold, or their traditional colours?

Whatever colors they had when they were a Space Marine Legion, so the World Eaters would be blue and white.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/World_Eaters

Or at least, that is how I understand it.

They probably changed their legion color and emblems the moment they began worshipping Khorne openly. I'd say it was well before the siege of Terra, but I'm not too sure... Any hints on the HH novels?

As for other legions... well, most artwork depicts Warmaster Horus clad in chaos-y black terminator armour. That could imply the Luna Wolves switched to chaos regalia early on.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:They probably changed their legion color and emblems the moment they began worshipping Khorne openly. I'd say it was well before the siege of Terra, but I'm not too sure... Any hints on the HH novels?

As for other legions... well, most artwork depicts Warmaster Horus clad in chaos-y black terminator armour. That could imply the Luna Wolves switched to chaos regalia early on.

Most of the Traitor Legions changed their colors after the HH, IIRCC. For instance, the Emperor's Children have not chanced their colors much. All they did was add some black.

Thanks for the replies.

I wonder whether they decided to paint their armor red just 'cause, or they ended up drenched in blood from slaughtering people, and decided it looked better that way.

forruner_mercy wrote:Most of the Traitor Legions changed their colors after the HH, IIRCC. For instance, the Emperor's Children have not chanced their colors much. All they did was add some black.

Yep. Some traitor legions didn't change their original colors at all. Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Death Guard...

DiAF wrote:I wonder whether they decided to paint their armor red just 'cause, or they ended up drenched in blood from slaughtering people, and decided it looked better that way.

Khorne favors all things red. Blood red. You know, I've always thought it was strange for a god of senseless bloodshed to have a favorite colour. Well, maybe it has to do with the emotional response the sight of blood elicits on us humans... not that GW has put too much effort in rationalizing that, though.

I think those that changed their colors probably did so in a haphazard fashion, with one group going with a radical change and others lagging behind until they had the opportunity or inclination to alter their armor.

I think there is too much red and black. Which is a reason why I like Emperor's Children. All pink and black and what-not.

I thought I read that the World Eaters still wore white and blue at the Battle of Terra?

Definitely on Istvaan they did.

Art work shows them still having pre-heresy colour schemes, just with a few extra bits and pieces (namely spikes).

About half of the traitor legions did not change their colors: Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, and Alpha Legion.

The rest can be split into two groups: those who changed uniformly, and those who changed haphazardly:

The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion went through three color schemes, each change dictated from above (first by Horus, then by Abaddon). They would be known as the Sons of Horus and wearing green armor during the Heresy, and only become the Black Legion after Horus's death.

The Thousand Sons also changed schemes all at once, but not intentionally. I believe the Rubric of Ahriman transformed their armor, including the colors. Before Prospero they would have their red scheme, afterwards (including during the Siege of Terra) they would be blue and white.

The Word Bearers also (in my opinion) probably changed all at once, since even today the legion retains remarkable coherency. I don't know any sources that mention exactly when this would have occurred, but it's possible they may have changed between Istvaan and Terra. They had completely crossed the line to corruption by that point and a heraldry change would be appropriate.

The remaining two legions changed gradually as they descended into madness. The World Eaters began painting parts of their armor red as their worship of Khorne took hold, but not under any direct command. I think this is mentioned in passing in one of the Age of Heresy stories. Depending on what part of the Heresy you're representing, a mix of their original colors and a little or a lot of red parts would be appropriate.

The Emperor's Children likewise started painting their armor piecemeal as they came under the sway of Chaos. From the old fluff, it was pretty clear there was no rhyme or reason to the changes. As they fell deeper into Slaanesh worship, they craved increasingly shocking sensory stimuli, leading to individual marines painting their armor in ridiculous and harsh colors and patterns. Painting them all black and pink is more for the sake of giving your army some uniformity on the tabletop. Anyway, like the World Eaters, the switch from uniform purple to insane neons would change gradually over the course of the Heresy, so it would be interesting to depict them at or just before Terra with some of their original colors and markings still showing.

The World Eaters are kind of a hard one to clarify.

Mostly, they wore the Legion colors. Many of the parts talking about them being "red" referred to the fact that their armor was basically caked in gore and blood, that they never actually bothered to clean off.

Yeah, the Emperor's Children's colours are pretty random. It's just easier on the table to make them look similar so they're easy to identify.

The Word bearers changed their colours before Calth as the Word Bearers aboard the Furious Abyss wore red.

Yeah, they said the new colours represented their faith or something.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:The Thousand Sons also changed schemes all at once, but not intentionally. I believe the Rubric of Ahriman transformed their armor, including the colors. Before Prospero they would have their red scheme, afterwards (including during the Siege of Terra) they would be blue and white.

The Rubic of Ahriman was not performed till after the Thousand sons were in the Eye of Terror, they actually remained free from mutation during the Horus Heresy.

Also 'Before Prospero' makes little sense as before Prospero would mean before Magnus' discovery by the Emperor and during the Great Crusade the Thousand Sons maintained their red colour scheme.

The World Eaters started to change their armor colour before the Heresy.

According to Ravens Flight, Angron founded a Warrior Cult whos members painted their armor all Blood Red.

Its unknown at this point how they joined the cult whether it was by choice or they were selected.

Enough Marines had all Red armor at Istvaan V for it to be commented on by Corax.

Ref the Thousand Sons, dont think their colour change has ever been explained in the fluff. (Its obviously Tzeentch colours but why has never
been explained, as they didnt exactly worship him after the sack of Prospero).

Thousand sons armor is blue because Magnus ordered it, it says something to that effect in battle of the fang.

I remember reading somewhere in the HH series that one character comments that the world eaters mostly white armour got so covered in blood during battle they might as well paint it red, and thats exactly what they did.

BluntmanDC wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:The Thousand Sons also changed schemes all at once, but not intentionally. I believe the Rubric of Ahriman transformed their armor, including the colors. Before Prospero they would have their red scheme, afterwards (including during the Siege of Terra) they would be blue and white.

The Rubic of Ahriman was not performed till after the Thousand sons were in the Eye of Terror, they actually remained free from mutation during the Horus Heresy.

Also 'Before Prospero' makes little sense as before Prospero would mean before Magnus' discovery by the Emperor and during the Great Crusade the Thousand Sons maintained their red colour scheme.

I think there's some confusion here. When I said "before Prospero", I meant before the Space Wolves sacked Prospero. That occurred at the very start of the Heresy, and the Thousand Sons fled to the warp to escape, ending up in the Eye of Terror on the Planet of Sorcerers (at least it's implied). They had 7 or so years to get nice and corrupted between then and the Siege of Terra, spending at least some of that time in the Eye.

You're right about the Rubric though. I don't know when that actually occurred, but I think it was after the Siege of Terra. The change in armor color coincided with the Rubric in older fluff, so they would have worn their original heraldry throughout the Heresy.

Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves/Black legion didn't change their armour until AFTER the heresy, as after Horus was killed, and Abaddon took his body back to the EoT, the Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves/Black legion painted their armour black at the shame of their defeat.

vodo40k wrote:I remember reading somewhere in the HH series that one character comments that the world eaters mostly white armour got so covered in blood during battle they might as well paint it red, and thats exactly what they did.

Yes, it was in Battle for the Abyss actually, the main protagonist of the story (an Ultramarine, I forget his name) was commenting on them after watching two of the WE spar and hack at each other in a practice ring.

Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves/Black legion didn't change their armour until AFTER the heresy, as after Horus was killed, and Abaddon took his body back to the EoT, the Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves/Black legion painted their armour black at the shame of their defeat.

Yes, although it was some time after their original defeat on Terra and then The Scouring. It says in the Chaos Dex that after they had arrived in the Eye of Terror the SoH were beset on all sides by other traitor legions, losing many engagements and gradually being reduced in number. It culminated in an attack by the Emperor's Children who stole Horus' body and cloning him. After Abaddon had defeated the EC, and destroyed all of the Horus clones, he ordered the rest of the legion paint its armour black and change their name, so they would forever remember their shame and failure.